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• Stuck due to "knowing too much"

  - by Ran Biron

  Note more discussion at http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4037794 Welcome Hacker News Visitors! While HN is a fine forum for discussion and debate, Programmers - Stack Exchange is not. From the FAQ: If your motivation for asking the question is “I would like to participate in a discussion about ____”, then you should not be asking here. However, if your motivation is “I would like others to explain ____ to me”, then you are probably OK. (Discussions are of course welcome in our real time web chat.) Currently, this question is viewed by the membership of Programmers.SE as more likely to provoke unproductive discussion than constructive answers; while debates on its form and future are conducted, it will be locked to prevent arguments and vandalism. -- Shog9 I have a relatively simple development task, but every time I try to attack it, I end up spiraling in deep thoughts - how could it extending the future, what are the 2nd generation clients going to need, how does it affect "non functional" aspects (e.g. Performance, authorization...), how would it best be architectured to allow change... I remember myself a while ago, younger and, perhaps, more eager. The "me" I was then wouldn't have given a thought about all that - he would've gone ahead and wrote something, then rewrote it, then rewrote it again (and again...). The "me" today is more hesitant, more careful. I find it much easier today to sit and plan and instruct other people on how to do things than to actually go ahead and do them myself - not because I don't like to code - the opposite, I love to! - but because every time I sit at the keyboard, I end up in that same annoying place. Is this wrong? Is this a natural evolution, or did I drive myself into a rut? Fair disclosure - in the past I was a developer, today my job title is a "system architect". Good luck figuring what it means - but that's the title. Wow. I honestly didn't expect this question to generate that many responses. I'll try to sum it up. Reasons: Analysis paralysis / Over engineering / gold plating / (any other "too much thinking up-front can hurt you"). Too much experience for the given task. Not focusing on what's important. Not enough experience (and realizing that). Solutions (not matched to reasons): Testing first. Start coding (+ for fun) One to throw away (+ one API to throw away). Set time constraints. Strip away the fluff, stay with the stuff. Make flexible code (kinda opposite to "one to throw away", no?). Thanks to everyone - I think the major benefit here was to realize that I'm not alone in this experience. I have, actually, already started coding and some of the too-big things have fallen off, naturally. Since this question is closed, I'll accept the answer with most votes as of today. When/if it changes - I'll try to follow.

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• Job Interview at Starbucks for Programmers [closed]

  - by Soner Gönül

  My friend is called for a job interviewing at Starbucks a few days ago. IMHO, but these kind of places a not very suitable environment for interviewing specialy for programmers. Actually, my question has 2 sides; Side of Interviewers: If you are interviewing at starbucks with a candidate as an Interviewer, How candidate should act there you prefer? What he/she should do or not? What would you pay attention on his/her? Side of Candidate: How you should act instead of interviewing in a meeting room? Should you drink something or not (if Interviewer ask)? Should you ask a question like "Why am I interviewing in this place?" What is the advantages and disadvantages of an interviewing by programmers in this kind of places?

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• Come Aboard. We're Expecting You...

  - by KKline

  Those of us over a certain age (read - old as dirt) can remember the theme songs to certain TV shows better than we can the National Anthem. Try these lines out and see if you don't immediately remember the tune that goes along with them: Come and knock on our door | We've been waiting for you ... Makin' your way in the world today | Takes everything you've got ... Just some good ol' boys | Never meaning no harm ... Thank you for being a friend | Travel down the road and back again ... So when I...(read more)

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• Were you a good programmer when you first left university?

  - by dustyprogrammer

  I recently graduated, from university. I have since then joined a development team where I am by far the least experienced developer, with maybe with a couple work terms under my belt, meanwhile the rest of the team is rocking 5-10 years experience. I am/was a very good student and a pretty good programmer when it came to bottled assignments and tests. I have worked on some projects with success. But now I working with a much bigger code-base, and the learning curve is much higher... I was wondering how many other developers started out their careers in teams and left like they sucked. When does this change? How can I speed up the process? My seniors are helping me but I want to be great and show my value now. I don't to start a flame war, this is just a question I have been having and I was hoping to get some advice from other experienced developers, as well as other beginners like me.

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• Manager keeps changing requirement specification after every demo.

  - by Jungle Hunter

  Background of my working environment My manager has no background or understanding of computers or software whatsoever. It is highly likely he hasn't seen code in any form (not even from a physical distance of 10 feet or less) in his life. There is no one who understands the complexity of what I am asked to implement. To the point that if I semi-hardcode no one would know. On Joel's test we score an unbelievable score 0. The problems The manager and at times other "senior" keep changing the requirement specification. Changes which, if good engineering be done and not patchy "fixes", require change in the underlying design. There is absolutely no one who looks at code (probably because no one knows how to, or even if it should be done) which means no one will ever be able to: Appreciate the complexity of the problem or the elegance of the solution. Suggest improvement to the approach. Appreciate the quality of the code. Point out where the code can be improved. A lot of jargon is used which makes sense grammatically but fails to make any sense any other way. Doesn't feel, behave or work like a software company. The question What should be done? Especially regarding there being no one who would point out improvements in my code. Update To answer HLGEM's (and possibly others) question about what I've done to try and fix it. I offered to set up Redmine and introduce source control to everyone. I said I would recommend distributed (git or mercurial) but will also talk about centralized ones and let the team decide. Response was that things are being done and will be done within weeks. Haven't seen that nor am I aware if other parts of the company use it.

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• What should I quote for a project I hope to get a job at the end of?

  - by thesunneversets

  Long story short: I applied for a (CakePHP, MySQL, etc) development job in London, UK. I grew up in Britain but am currently based quite a few thousand miles away in Canada, so I wasn't really expecting success. But quite a few emails and phone interviews later it seems that they really like me. At least to a point. Because such a major relocation would be a horrible thing to go wrong, they've sensibly suggested a trial run of getting me to build a website at a distance. I have the spec for this and it's quite a substantial amount of work. My problem is that I now need to suggest both a fee and a timescale for the job, and I haven't got any significant experience of working as a contractor. Looking at the spec, which is 1500 words of many concisely stated features, some fairly trivial and some moderately involved, I can easily imagine there being 2 weeks of intensive work there. (If everything went really well it might be closer to one week, but even though I want to impress, I definitely don't want to fall into the inexperienced-contractor trap of massively underestimating the amount of time a project will run to.) As an extra complication, there is no expectation that I should give up my day job to get this trial project done, so the hours will have to be clawed from evenings and weekends. I don't want to overcommit to a quick delivery date, only to find myself swiftly burning out due to an unrealistic workload. So, any advice for me? My main question is, what is a realistic hourly figure to demand of a stable but not excessively wealthy London-based company in the current market, bearing in mind that I'd like them to hire me afterwards? But any more general recommendations based on my circumstances above would be much appreciated too. Many thanks!

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• Cloud Evolving, SQL Server Responding

  - by KKline

  Brent Ozar ( blog | twitter ) and I did an interview with TechTarget’s Brendan Cournoyer at last summer's Tech-Ed, which as turned into a podcast titled “Cloud efforts advance, SQL Server evolves.” The podcast covers all the major trends at the conference (like BI), virtualization features in Quest’s products (like Spotlight), Brent’s new book and MCM certification, and more. Here’s a link to hear it, appearing on 6/11/10: http://searchsqlserver.techtarget.com/podcast/Cloud-efforts-advance-SQL-Server-evolves....(read more)

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• Are there too many qualified software development engineers chasing too few jobs?

  - by T Gregory

  I am trying to write this question in a non-argumentative way, but it is quite emotionally charged for some, so please bear with me. In the U.S., we hear constantly from CEOs that they cannot find enough qualified software engineers. In fact, it is the position of the U.S. government that demand for software engineering talent outpaces supply. This position can be clearly seen in the granting of tens of thousands of H1B visas, but also in the following excerpt from the official 2010-11 Bureau of Labor Statistics Occupational Outlook Handbook: Employment of computer software engineers is expected to increase by 32 percent from 2008-2018, which is much faster than the average for all occupations. In addition, this occupation will see a large number of new jobs, with more than 295,000 created between 2008 and 2018. Demand for computer software engineers will increase as computer networking continues to grow. For example, expanding Internet technologies have spurred demand for computer software engineers who can develop Internet, intranet, and World Wide Web applications. Likewise, electronic data-processing systems in business, telecommunications, healthcare, government, and other settings continue to become more sophisticated and complex. Implementing, safeguarding, and updating computer systems and resolving problems will fuel the demand for growing numbers of systems software engineers. New growth areas will also continue to arise from rapidly evolving technologies. The increasing uses of the Internet, the proliferation of Web sites, and mobile technology such as the wireless Internet have created a demand for a wide variety of new products. As more software is offered over the Internet, and as businesses demand customized software to meet their specific needs, applications and systems software engineers will be needed in greater numbers. In addition, the growing use of handheld computers will create demand for new mobile applications and software systems. As these devices become a larger part of the business environment, it will be necessary to integrate current computer systems with this new, more mobile technology. However, from the the employee side of the equation, we often hear the opposite. Many of the stories of SDEs with graduate degrees and decades of experience on the unemployment line, or the big tech interview war stories, are anecdotal, for sure. But, there is one piece of data that is neither anecdotal nor transitory, and that is the aggregate decisions of millions of undergraduates of what degree to pursue. Here, a different picture emerges from the data, and that picture is not good for the software profession. According the most recent Taulbee Survey from Computer Research Association, undergrad degree production in CS and CE has fallen nearly 60% since 2004. (Undergrad enrollments have ticked up in the past two years, but only modestly). Here we see that a basic disconnect between what corporate CEOs and the US government are saying and what potential employees really think about job prospects in software engineering. So my questions are these. Who are we to believe? Is there an acute talent shortage, or is there a long-term structural oversupply in the SDE labor market? Can anyone provide reliable data on long-term unemployment among SDEs? How many are leaving the profession due to lack of work? Real data is most helpful. Thanks.

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• Getting into driver development for linux [closed]

  - by user1103966

  Right now, I've been learning about writing device-drivers for linux 3.2 kernel for about 2 months. So far I have been able program simple char drivers that only read and write to a fictitious dev structure like a file, but now I'm moving to more advance concepts. The new material I've learned about includes I/O port manipulation, memory management, and interrupts. I feel that I have a basic understanding of overall driver operation but, there is still so much that I don't know. My question is this, given that I have the basic theory of how to write a dev-driver for a piece of hardware ... how long would it take to actually develop the skills of writing actual software that companies would want to employ? I plan on getting involved in an open-source project and building a portfolio. Also what type of beginner drivers could I write for hardware that would best help me develop my skills? I was thinking that taking on a project where I design my own key logger would easy and a good assignment to help me understand how IO ports and interrupts are used. I may want to eventually specialize in writing software for video cards or network devices though these devices seem beyond my understanding at the moment. Thanks for any help

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• How do you handle developer that has taken an "early retirement"?

  - by Amir Rezaei

  I have worked in many projects and have notice some people just refuse and have no interest in learning new technology. They simply look down to every simple tool and technology. It’s hard to understand how they got here at first place. I have understanding for time for family and social activities. But I don’t understand the lack of any single interest. It’s kind of being in wrong business. I have read this question and I think the problem is the people. How do you handle a developer that has taken "early retirement" (unwilling to learn)? How do you motivate them? What is the term for people who refuses to learn new technology?

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• Useful certifications for a young programmer

  - by Alain

  As @Paddyslacker elegantly stated in Are certifications worth it? The main purpose of certifications is to make money for the certifying body. I am a fairly young developer, with only an undergraduate degree, and my job is (graciously) offering to sponsor some professional development of my choice (provided it can be argued that it will contribute to the quality of work I do for them). A search online offers a slew of (mostly worthless) certifications one can attain. I'm wondering if there are any that are actually recognized in the (North American) industry as an asset. My local university promoted CIPS (I.S.P., ITCP) at the time I was graduating, but for all I can tell it's just the one that happened to get its foot in the door. It's certainly money grubbing - with a $205 a year fee. So are there any such certifications that provide useful credentials? To better define 'useful' - would it benefit full time developers, or is it only something worth while to the self-employed? Would any certifications lead me to being considered for higher wages, or can that only be achieved with more experience and an higher-level degree?

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• Computer Science Degrees and Real-World Experience

  - by Steven Elliott Jr

  Recently, at a family reunion-type event I was asked by a high school student how important it is to get a computer science degree in order to get a job as a programmer in lieu of actual programming experience. The kid has been working with Python and the Blender project as he's into making games and the like; it sounds like he has some decent programming chops. Now, as someone that has gone through a computer science degree my initial response to this question is to say, "You absolutely MUST get a computer science degree in order to get a job as a programmer!" However, as I thought about this I was unsure as to whether my initial reaction was due in part to my own suffering as a CS student or because I feel that this is actually the case. Now, for me, I can say that I rarely use anything that I learned in college, in terms of the extremely hard math, algorithms, etc, etc. but I did come away with a decent attitude and the willingness to work through tough problems. I just don't know what to tell this kid; I feel like I should tell him to do the CS degree but I have hired so many programmers that majored in things like English, Philosophy, and other liberal arts-type degrees, even some that never went to college. In fact my best developer, falls into this latter category. He got started writing software for his church or something and then it took off into a passion. So, while I know this is one of those juicy potential down vote questions, I am just curious as to what everyone else thinks about this topic. Would you tell a high school kid about this? Perhaps if he/she already knows a good deal of programming and loves it he doesn't need a CS degree and could expand his horizons with a liberal arts degree. I know one of the creators of the Django web framework was a American Literature major and he is obviously a pretty gifted developer. Anyway, thanks for the consideration.

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• What are the advantages and disadvantages to using your real name online?

  - by Jon Purdy

  As a programmer, do you see any professional or other advantage in using your real name in online discourse, versus an invented handle? I've always gone by a single username and had my real name displayed whenever possible, for a few reasons: My interests online are almost exclusively professional and aboveboard. It constructs a search-friendly public log of all of my work, everywhere. If someone wants to contact me, there are many ways to do it. My portfolio of work is all tied to me personally. Possible cons to full disclosure include: If you feel like becoming involved in something untoward, it could be harder. The psychopath who inherits your project can more easily find out where you live. You might be spammed by people who are not worth the precious time that could be better spent writing more of the brilliant software you're famous for. Your portfolio of work is all tied to you personally. It seems, anyway, that a vast majority of StackOverflow users go by invented handles rather than real names. Notable exceptions include the best-known users, who are typically well established in the industry. But how could we ever become legendary rockstar programmers if we didn't get our names out there? Discuss.

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• Would knowing Python help with creating iPhone applications?

  - by Josh

  Here is what the apple site says: With Snow Leopard, Mac OS X makes it easy to use scripting languages as full application development tools. Snow Leopard ships with support for the RubyCocoa Bridge and the PyObjC bridge. These two bridges give developers access not only to system APIs, but to Cocoa frameworks such as AppKit and Core Data, enabling you to build fully native Mac OS X applications in Ruby or Python. The RubyCocoa and PyObjC bridges allow you to freely mix code written in Objective-C with code written in the scripting language. You can quickly build prototypes and then optimise by implementing performance-critical pieces in Objective-C. How could Python help in this case?

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• Should a Python programmer learn Ruby?

  - by C J

  Hi! I have been a Python programmer for around 1.5 years (one internship + side projects), so I am comfortable with the language. Given that everyone is talking about Ruby these days, and I mean seriously! No one bothers about Python (from what I've seen). See GitHub. All RoR. I apply for a job and they ask me about RoR. I look at the screencasts on peepcode.com and they are in Ruby. gitimmersion.com has all the tutorial in Ruby! I know this is pretty vague, but still... why Ruby! Everyone these days is obssessed with RoR! Why not Python? Anyways, my questions are: Should I learn Ruby? Is learning Ruby when knowing Python be, er, complicated for me? Or is it going to be just like learning any other language? Thanks!

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• What is the difference between "contracting" and "consulting"? [closed]

  - by Rice Flour Cookies

  Possible Duplicate: Contractor vs Consultant I read a discussion thread on Slashdot the other day where some developers were discussing taking on "consulting" and "contracting" jobs. My understanding is that both of these terms imply an individual selling his services as a programmer on his own terms as opposed to working for an employer. What is the difference between these two: "consulting" and "contracting"?

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• Should a programmer know Linux ?

  - by Maxtor

  I'm a PHP/Python programmer learning Java and C#(.NET). My main OS is windows 7 but I've used Linux and currently dual-booting with Ubuntu. My Linux knowledge however, is pretty limited. I can work with the command line on simple tasks but that's pretty much it. I don't do any shell scripting, don't know very well the most important commands, nor the system in general. My interests are web development, mobile apps and maybe some embedded stuff in the future. Should I get myself familiarized more with Linux ? Even if at the moment I'm not that interested in it? Is it a must for future job positions considering my field of interest? Thank you.

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• What do you think of the following job specification?

  - by m.edmondson

  Just received this out of the blue from a recruiter - a number of things stand out to me: PERSON PROFILE Hard working - with a stay until the job in done mentality Thrive on the pressure of tight weekly development deadlines Good attention to detail to ensure bug free development Ability to test all development work from user's perpective Ability to think like a user as well as a developer Good communication skills to understand new funcationality and bugs Flexibility to contribute outside main responsbilities when needed. BENEFITS Salary dependant on skills Contributary Pension with 4% contribution from employer (after 1 year of service) Private Healthcase (after 1 year of service) 20 days holiday + 3-4 days holiday between Christmas and New year - 1 day extra holiday available each quarter you don't have a day off sick (and an additional day if you are not off sick for the whole year ). Would you want to work here? From what I can see they want a work-a-holic who will crawl out of his death bed in order to not lose holiday entitlement.

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• How to become an expert web-developer?

  - by John Smith

  I am currently a Junior PHP developer and I really LOVE it, I love internet from first time I got into it, I always loved smartly-created websites, always was wondering how it all works, always admired websites with good design and rich functionality, and finally I am creating web-sites on my own and it feels really great. My goals are to become expert web-developer (aiming for creating websites for small and medium business, not enterprise-sized systems), to have a great full-time job, to do freelance and to create my own startup in future. General question: What do I do to be an expert, professional and demanded web-programmer? More concrete questions: 1). How do I choose languages and technologies needed? I know that every web-developer must know HTML+CSS+JS+AJAX+JQuery, I am doing some design aswell cause I like it and I need it for freelance also. But what about backend languages? Currently I picked PHP cause it's most demanded in my area and most of web uses it, but what would happen in future? Say, in 3 years, I am good at PHP and PHP frameworks by than, but what if some other languages get most popular? Do I switch to them? I know that good programmer is not about languages and frameworks but about ability to learn and to aim the goals, but still I think that learning frameworks for some language can take quite some time. Am I wrong? 2). In general, what are basic guidelines to be expert web-developer? What are most important things I should focus on? Thank you!

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• Cloud Evolving, SQL Server Responding

  - by KKline

  Brent Ozar ( blog | twitter ) and I did an interview with TechTarget’s Brendan Cournoyer at last summer's Tech-Ed, which as turned into a podcast titled “Cloud efforts advance, SQL Server evolves.” The podcast covers all the major trends at the conference (like BI), virtualization features in Quest’s products (like Spotlight), Brent’s new book and MCM certification, and more. Here’s a link to hear it, appearing on 6/11/10: http://searchsqlserver.techtarget.com/podcast/Cloud-efforts-advance-SQL-Server-evolves....(read more)

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• What projects did you have on your CV when you got your first junior web developer job?

  - by CodeNoob

  What sort of projects should one have completed and at what level/standard should these be at before one could justifiably start applying for junior web development jobs? I'm basically trying to find out exactly what other self-taught (front-end or back-end) web-developers have done before they felt they had a realistic chance of getting their first junior development job. I'm hoping for more specific answers than 'I joined an open source project' or 'I did some freelance work'. What was the project? What tasks had you completed on this project?

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• Should I be put off a junior role that uses an online development test?

  - by Ninefingers

  I've applied for a junior development role, or rather been found by a recruiter looking for a developer. In order to get to a telephone interview stage I've been asked to sit one of those online coding assessments. This wasn't quite what I expected. I consider myself a fairly good developer for my age and experience, but I've no illusions about being Don Knuth or anything. The test was a series of incredibly obtuse questions asking about the results of various obscure evaluations. About 30 minutes in I was thinking to myself I hadn't intended to enter an obfuscated code contest/code golf exercise. After my last telephone interview I was asked to build something. I did. That seemed fair. Go away and work this out is more my in office experience of programming than "please evaluate this combination of lambdas, filters, maps, lists, tuples etc". So I'm a little put off, to be honest. I never claimed to know the language inside out or all the little corner cases. My questions, then: Should I be put off? Why? Why not? Are these kinds of tests what I should be expecting for junior roles? Should I learn stuff exam style? That seems to be the objective of these tests, for which you are timed and not supposed to use references or books? Normally, in the course of development I have a fairly good idea of basic types, rules, flow control and whatever. Occasionally I'll come up on something I need to use a regex for and have to go and remind myself of the exact piece of syntax I need if trying what I think should work doesn't. Or I'll come up against a module I've not used before and go and look it up. For example, if I wanted to write a server using sockets in C right now, I'd probably check the last piece of code I wrote doing that (and or the various books I have) and work from there. Chances are I probably couldn't do it exactly from scratch and from memory, although I can tell you you'd need a socket(), bind(), listen() and accept() call and you might also want select() depending on whether you intend to pthread_create or not. So I know what the calls are, but not their specific parameter list. What are your experiences if you are a recruiting manager? Are you after programmers who can quote you the API or do you not mind if your programmers have a few books on their desk and google function calls every so often?

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• The musical instrument software developer

  - by Peter Mortensen

  There is a correlation between playing a musical instrument and being a great software developer (the same for mathematics). But what is the causation (if any)? That is, should a software developer learn to play a musical instrument to become a better software developer? Or does proficiency in software development make it more likely that an interest in performing on a musical instrument will develop? Update: a very similar question was asked in podcast .NET Rocks, episode 614 (from Øredev 2010), 35 min 40 secs.

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• Interviews: Going Beyond the Technical Quiz

  - by Tony Davis

  All developers will be familiar with the basic format of a technical interview. After a bout of CV-trawling to gauge basic experience, strengths and weaknesses, the interview turns technical. The whiteboard takes center stage and the challenge is set to design a function or query, or solve what on the face of it might seem a disarmingly simple programming puzzle. Most developers will have experienced those few panic-stricken moments, when one’s mind goes as blank as the whiteboard, before un-popping the marker pen, and hopefully one’s mental functions, to work through the problem. It is a way to probe the candidate’s knowledge of basic programming structures and techniques and to challenge their critical thinking. However, these challenges or puzzles, often devised by some of the smartest brains in the development team, have a tendency to become unnecessarily ‘tricksy’. They often seem somewhat academic in nature. While the candidate straight out of IT school might breeze through the construction of a Markov chain, a candidate with bags of practical experience but less in the way of formal training could become nonplussed. Also, a whiteboard and a marker pen make up only a very small part of the toolkit that a programmer will use in everyday work. I remember vividly my first job interview, for a position as technical editor. It went well, but after the usual CV grilling and technical questions, I was only halfway there. Later, they sat me alongside a team of editors, in front of a computer loaded with MS Word and copy of SQL Server Query Analyzer, and my task was to edit a real chapter for a real SQL Server book that they planned to publish, including validating and testing all the code. It was a tough challenge but I came away with a sound knowledge of the sort of work I’d do, and its context. It makes perfect sense, yet my impression is that many organizations don’t do this. Indeed, it is only relatively recently that Red Gate started to move over to this model for developer interviews. Now, instead of, or perhaps in addition to, the whiteboard challenges, the candidate can expect to sit with their prospective team, in front of Visual Studio, loaded with all the useful tools in the developer’s kit (ReSharper and so on) and asked to, for example, analyze and improve a real piece of software. The same principles should apply when interviewing for a database positon. In addition to the usual questions challenging the candidate’s knowledge of such things as b-trees, object permissions, database recovery models, and so on, sit the candidate down with the other database developers or DBAs. Arm them with a copy of Management Studio, and a few other tools, then challenge them to discover the flaws in a stored procedure, and improve its performance. Or present them with a corrupt database and ask them to get the database back online, and discover the cause of the corruption.

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• How can a large company foster excellence in its engineers?

  - by Joshiatto

  I am tasked with improving the skills (quality & speed) of engineers in my company. Here are some ideas: Pair Programming TDD Automated Check-in Policies Talks given by experts Awards for coding excellence Encourage competition among engineers to contribute to GitHub Publish standards and practices docs on the intranet site "Gamification" of engineering. Somehow make becoming badasses into a game they will enjoy playing Training Showcase github checkins on screens around the office Add an "engineer of the month" to the intranet home page How can I drive traffic to the intranet home page? What crazy futuristic idea would drive engineers to go to the page every day to see who of their peers are making more money than them (inferred via recognition) and then go off and improve their skills and productivity to see their standings improve on the home page??? Or any ideas just to foster collaboration and love for their jobs so they start taking more pride in their work?? Don't take my ideas as symptomatic of our org. I take full responsibility for not knowing the right way to do this.

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