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• Is there a way to find my SMTP information from my Exchange Server 2007?

  - by patzyyy

  Is there a way to find my SMTP information on my Exchange Server 2007? It was set up by someone else but I have full admin rights. I would like to use it for an internal .net application just to send emails locally. Thanks in advance! Daniel

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• wanting to move up from ms access, thinking .net? visual studio?

  - by Tristan Lear

  So I wrote a project-management program for a small business using Microsoft Access 2007. Now they've requested lots of additional features (timekeeping, privileged data tiers ...) I personally use Linux, but the whole office uses Windows. I'm relatively new to programming but like to teach myself using projects like this. I'm right on the edge on this -- I can't really tell what the path of least resistance here is: do I stay in access + VBA and teach myself a dying, annoying language -- while struggling against all the limitations of Access? Or do I move to something else? Python seems simple enough ... Whatever I use, i need to be able to offer a GUI.

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• ASP.NET: Using pickup directory for outgoing e-mails

  - by DigiMortal

  Sending e-mails out from web applications is very common task. When we are working on or test our systems with real e-mail addresses we don’t want recipients to receive e-mails (specially if we are using some subset of real data9. In this posting I will show you how to make ASP.NET SMTP client to write e-mails to disc instead of sending them out. SMTP settings for web application I have seen many times the code where all SMTP information is kept in app settings just to read them in code and give to SMTP client. It is not necessary because we can define all these settings under system.web => mailsettings node. If you are using web.config to keep SMTP settings then all you have to do in your code is just to create SmtpClient with empty constructor. var smtpClient = new SmtpClient(); Empty constructor means that all settings are read from web.config file. What is pickup directory? If you want drastically raise e-mail throughput of your SMTP server then it is not very wise plan to communicate with it using SMTP protocol. it adds only additional overhead to your network and SMTP server. Okay, clients make connections, send messages out and it is also overhead we can avoid. If clients write their e-mails to some folder that SMTP server can access then SMTP server has e-mail forwarding as only resource-eager task to do. File operations are way faster than communication over SMTP protocol. The directory where clients write their e-mails as files is called pickup directory. By example, Exchange server has support for pickup directories. And as there are applications with a lot of users who want e-mail notifications then .NET SMTP client supports writing e-mails to pickup directory instead of sending them out. How to configure ASP.NET SMTP to use pickup directory? Let’s say, it is more than easy. It is very easy. This is all you need. <system.net>   <mailSettings>     <smtp deliveryMethod="SpecifiedPickupDirectory">       <specifiedPickupDirectory pickupDirectoryLocation="c:\temp\maildrop\"/>     </smtp>   </mailSettings> </system.net> Now make sure you don’t miss come points: Pickup directory must physically exist because it is not created automatically. IIS (or Cassini) must have write permissions to pickup directory. Go through your code and look for hardcoded SMTP settings. Also take a look at all places in your code where you send out e-mails that there are not some custom settings used for SMTP! Also don’t forget that your mails will be written now to pickup directory and they are not sent out to recipients anymore. Advanced scenario: configuring SMTP client in code In some advanced scenarios you may need to support multiple SMTP servers. If configuration is dynamic or it is not kept in web.config you need to initialize your SmtpClient in code. This is all you need to do. var smtpClient = new SmtpClient(); smtpClient.DeliveryMethod = SmtpDeliveryMethod.SpecifiedPickupDirectory; smtpClient.PickupDirectoryLocation = pickupFolder; Easy, isn’t it? i like when advanced scenarios end up with simple and elegant solutions but not with rocket science. Note for IIS SMTP service SMTP service of IIS is also able to use pickup directory. If you have set up IIS with SMTP service you can configure your ASP.NET application to use IIS pickup folder. In this case you have to use the following setting for delivery method. SmtpDeliveryMethod.PickupDirectoryFromIis You can set this setting also in web.config file. <system.net>   <mailSettings>     <smtp deliveryMethod="PickupDirectoryFromIis" />   </mailSettings> </system.net> Conclusion Who was still using different methods to avoid sending e-mails out in development or testing environment can now remove all the bad code from application and live on mail settings of ASP.NET. It is easy to configure and you have less code to support e-mails when you use built-in e-mail features wisely.

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• Problem with Java Mail : No provider for smtp

  - by user359198

  Hello all. I am using JavaMail to do a simple application that sends an email when it finds some files in a directory. I managed to get it worked from Eclipse. I Run the application and it sent the email with no errors. But, when I created the jar, and executed it, it fails in the email sending part. It gives this exception. javax.mail.NoSuchProviderException: No provider for smtp at javax.mail.Session.getProvider(Session.java:460) at javax.mail.Session.getTransport(Session.java:655) at javax.mail.Session.getTransport(Session.java:636) at main.java.util.MailManager.sendMail(MailManager.java:69) at main.java.DownloadsMail.composeAndSendMail(DownloadsMail.java:16) at main.java.DownloadsController.checkDownloads(DownloadsController.java:51) at main.java.MainDownloadsController.run(MainDownloadsController.java:26) at java.lang.Thread.run(Unknown Source) I am using the library in this method: public static boolean sendMail(String subject, String text){ noExceptionsThrown = true; try { loadProperties(); } catch (IOException e1) { System.out.println("Problem encountered while loading properties"); e1.printStackTrace(); noExceptionsThrown = false; } Properties mailProps = new Properties(); String host = "mail.smtp.host"; mailProps.setProperty(host, connectionProps.getProperty(host)); String tls = "mail.smtp.starttls.enable"; mailProps.setProperty(tls, connectionProps.getProperty(tls)); String port = "mail.smtp.port"; mailProps.setProperty(port, connectionProps.getProperty(port)); String user = "mail.smtp.user"; mailProps.setProperty(user, connectionProps.getProperty(user)); String auth = "mail.smtp.auth"; mailProps.setProperty(auth, connectionProps.getProperty(auth)); Session session = Session.getDefaultInstance(mailProps); //session.setDebug(true); MimeMessage message = new MimeMessage(session); try { message.setFrom(new InternetAddress(messageProps.getProperty("from"))); message.addRecipient(Message.RecipientType.TO, new InternetAddress( messageProps.getProperty("to"))); message.setSubject(subject); message.setText(text); Transport t = session.getTransport("smtp"); try { t.connect(connectionProps.getProperty("user"), passwordProps .getProperty("password")); t.sendMessage(message, message.getAllRecipients()); } catch (Exception e) { System.out.println("Error encountered while sending the email"); e.printStackTrace(); noExceptionsThrown = false; } finally { t.close(); } } catch (Exception e) { System.out.println("Error encountered while creating the message"); e.printStackTrace(); noExceptionsThrown = false; } return noExceptionsThrown; } I am loading these values from properties files. mail.smtp.host=smtp.gmail.com mail.smtp.starttls.enable=true mail.smtp.port=587 mail.smtp.auth=true I have tried to change the host by ssl://smtp.gmail.com, the port by 465 (just for trying something different), but it doesn't work either. Anyway, if it works fine from Eclipse with the original parameters, I guess that the values are correct, but the problem is creating the jar. I don't know very much about the possible results or changes when creating a jar. Could the JavaMail libraries someway go wrong when the jar is created? Do you have any ideas? Thank you very much for your help.

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• Postfix: Using google apps for stmp errors

  - by Zed Said

  I am using postfix and need to send the mail using google apps smtp. I am getting errors after I thought I had set everything up correctly: May 11 09:50:57 zedsaid postfix/error[22214]: 00E009693FB: to=<[email protected]>, relay=none, delay=2466, delays=2462/3.4/0/0.06, dsn=4.7.0, status=deferred (delivery temporarily suspended: SASL authentication failed; cannot authenticate to server smtp.gmail.com[74.125.155.109]: no mechanism available) May 11 09:50:57 zedsaid postfix/error[22213]: 0ACB36D1B94: to=<[email protected]>, relay=none, delay=2486, delays=2482/3.4/0/0.06, dsn=4.7.0, status=deferred (delivery temporarily suspended: SASL authentication failed; cannot authenticate to server smtp.gmail.com[74.125.155.109]: no mechanism available) May 11 09:50:57 zedsaid postfix/error[22232]: 067379693D3: to=<[email protected]>, relay=none, delay=2421, delays=2417/3.4/0/0.06, dsn=4.7.0, status=deferred (delivery temporarily suspended: SASL authentication failed; cannot authenticate to server smtp.gmail.com[74.125.155.109]: no mechanism available) main.cf: # Debian specific: Specifying a file name will cause the first # line of that file to be used as the name. The Debian default # is /etc/mailname. #myorigin = /etc/mailname smtpd_banner = $myhostname ESMTP $mail_name (Debian/GNU) biff = no # appending .domain is the MUA's job. append_dot_mydomain = no # Uncomment the next line to generate "delayed mail" warnings #delay_warning_time = 4h readme_directory = no # TLS parameters #smtpd_tls_cert_file=/etc/ssl/certs/ssl-cert-snakeoil.pem #smtpd_tls_key_file=/etc/ssl/private/ssl-cert-snakeoil.key smtpd_use_tls=yes smtpd_tls_session_cache_database = btree:${data_directory}/smtpd_scache smtp_tls_session_cache_database = btree:${data_directory}/smtp_scache # See /usr/share/doc/postfix/TLS_README.gz in the postfix-doc package for # information on enabling SSL in the smtp client. myhostname = zedsaid.com alias_maps = hash:/etc/aliases alias_database = hash:/etc/aliases myorigin = /etc/mailname mydestination = #relayhost = mynetworks = 127.0.0.0/8 [::ffff:127.0.0.0]/104 [::1]/128 mailbox_command = procmail -a "$EXTENSION" mailbox_size_limit = 0 recipient_delimiter = + inet_interfaces = all delay_warning_time = 4h smtpd_recipient_limit = 16 # how many error before back off. smtpd_soft_error_limit = 3 # how many max errors before blocking it. smtpd_hard_error_limit = 12 ## Gmail Relay relayhost = [smtp.gmail.com]:587 smtp_use_tls = yes smtp_sasl_auth_enable = yes smtp_sasl_password_maps = hash:/etc/postfix/sasl_passwd smtp_sasl_security_options = noanonymous smtp_sasl_tls_security_options = noanonymous smtp_sasl_mechanism_filter = login smtp_tls_eccert_file = smtp_tls_eckey_file = smtp_use_tls = yes smtp_enforce_tls = no smtp_tls_CAfile = /etc/postfix/cacert.pem smtpd_tls_received_header = yes tls_random_source = dev:/dev/urandom transport_maps = hash:/etc/postfix/transport debug_peer_list = smtp.gmail.com debug_peer_level = 3 What am I doing wrong?

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• How to make an access database where both users with and without an ID number can make a transaction

  - by louise

  I am trying to create an access 2007 database that allows staff that already have ID numbers to make a transaction and also other guest users who do not have ID number make a transaction. What is the best way todo this in access? A transaction involves taking an item out of inventory. Therefore if one a user (staff or external) has an item out of inventory then no other users can get a hold of that item. Thanks, Any Ideas would be most appreciated!

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• OneNote 2010 shortcut to select Pen #1, OR shortcut to access "Quick Access Toolbar"

  - by bobobobo

  Can you assign a keyboard shortcut to the commands you've placed in OneNote 2010's "Quick Access Toolbar"? CTRL+1, CTRL+2 or something.. What I really want to do is have a keyboard shortcut to select Pen #1, Pen #2 etc, but since I placed the pens in the "Quick Access Toolbar" I'd be happy if I could type a keyboard shortcut to access those. This is a pretty comprehensive list of known shortcuts

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• is access to samba share dependent on internet access

  - by Ravi

  Running Ubuntu 7.04. Samba is installed and running. Ubuntu server is connected to the internet thru an adsl modem. Rest of the network consists of windows-xp machines All xp machines can see the shared samba folders when internet access is on. If however , the internet access is interrupted , then the samba server cannot be viewed and no sharing occurs. Is samba folder sharing dependent on internet access ?

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• Postifix SMTP Load Balance

  - by user103373

  I want to load balance outbound emails between 3 post-fix gateways for sending mails only reason is to use multiple different source IPs to increase throughput & inbox delivery. Each gateway should receive an approximately equal amount of outbound messages. How is it possible please suggest. +---------- smtp A --------- Internet | clients -------- smtp lb ----- smtp B --------- Internet | +---------- smtp C --------- Internet

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• Access 2007 DAO VBA Error 3381 causes objects in calling methods to "break".

  - by MT

  ---AFTER FURTHER INVESTIGATION--- "tblABC" in the below example must be a linked table (to another Access database). If "tblABC" is in the same database as the code then the problem does not occur. Hi, We have recently upgraded to Office 2007. We have a method in which we have an open recordset (DAO). We then call another sub (UpdatingSub below) that executes SQL. This method has its own error handler. If error 3381 is encountered then the recordset in the calling method becomes "unset" and we get error 3420 'Object invalid or no longer set'. Other errors in UpdatingSub do not cause the same problem. This code works fine in Access 2003. Private Sub Whatonearth() Dim rs As dao.Recordset set rs = CurrentDb.OpenRecordset("tblLinkedABC") Debug.Print rs.RecordCount UpdatingSub "ALTER TABLE tblTest DROP Column ColumnNotThere" 'Error 3240 occurs on the below line even though err 3381 is trapped in the calling procedure 'This appears to be because error 3381 is encountered when calling UpdatingSub above Debug.Print rs.RecordCount End Sub Private Sub WhatonearthThatWorks() Dim rs As dao.Recordset set rs = CurrentDb.OpenRecordset("tblLinkedABC") Debug.Print rs.RecordCount 'Change the update to generate a different error UpdatingSub "NONSENSE SQL STATEMENT" 'Error is trapped in UpdatingSub. Next line works fine. Debug.Print rs.RecordCount End Sub Private Sub UpdatingSub(strSQL As String) On Error GoTo ErrHandler: CurrentDb.Execute strSQL ErrHandler: 'LogError' End Sub Any thoughts? We are running Office Access 2007 (12.0.6211.1000) SP1 MSO (12.0.6425.1000). Perhaps see if SP2 can be distributed? Sorry about formatting - not sure how to fix that.

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• Exchange 2010 periodically stops responding to SMTP events with error 421 4.4.1 Connection timed out

  - by Michael Shimmins

  After some help diagnosing why Exchange 2010 Enterprise stops responding to SMTP events. I can't find a pattern to it. It doesn't appear to be an actual timeout, as the server responds immediately with the error. To reproduce it I telnet into the server on port 25 and issue a EHLO. The server immediately replies with the 421: 421 4.4.1 Connection timed out Once this starts happening I've found restarting the exchange box is the only reliable way to get it flowing again. Sometimes restarting the Transport service or the mailbox attendant service seems to fix it, but this could be coincidental as it often has no effect.

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• Just want to send emails from my Ubuntu Server. What simple SMTP server solution to use?

  - by Sergio Oliveira Jr.

  Basically I have a Ubuntu Server machine and I would like an idiot-proof solution for sending emails from my website that is also running in this same machine. My doubts are: 1) Should I use postfix or there are more simple solutions for an smtp server? 2) Do I need to be able to receive emails as well? I just want to send emails... 3) I did I simple test with postfix that came with my Ubuntu server and the email got sent, but it went to the spam box of my gmail. Anyway to avoid the spam box? 4) The email sender was [email protected]. How do I change that? Thanks very much! -Sergio

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• Exchange 2010 periodically stops responding to SMTP events with error 421 4.4.1 Connection timed out

  - by Michael Shimmins

  After some help diagnosing why Exchange 2010 Enterprise stops responding to SMTP events. I can't find a pattern to it. It doesn't appear to be an actual timeout, as the server responds immediately with the error. To reproduce it I telnet into the server on port 25 and issue a EHLO. The server immediately replies with the 421: 421 4.4.1 Connection timed out Once this starts happening I've found restarting the exchange box is the only reliable way to get it flowing again. Sometimes restarting the Transport service or the mailbox attendant service seems to fix it, but this could be coincidental as it often has no effect.

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• Does SMTP greylisting a) stop much spam and b) stop much legitimate mail?

  - by Whisk

  I've just set up an SMTP server on a relatively little used domain using Postfix and enabled greylisting with SQLGrey. So far it seems to be working OK, and while there's the slight irritation of delays to emails from new senders, I can see from the logs that it's deterring a number of spam messages. In your experience does greylisting effectively stop much spam? Is it a useful addition to e.g. SpamAssassin or is adding it on top overkill/unnecessary? If I were to roll this out to heavier use domains (perhaps with more demanding users) would you anticipate a significant portion of poorly configured mail servers that would end up bouncing or losing messages?

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• Windows 2003 SMTP virtual server, why emails are not delivered?

  - by bardan

  Configured Windows 2003 as my email client, everything works fine with POP3 (i'm able to recieve emails), the problem is with SMTP and i can't figure out how to find where excatly this problem is, because email looks like it is sent, but recipients don't recieve anything... i had some problems with relying, but fixed everything, and now i configured outlook express on the same machine, trying to send emails and it looks everything fine, email goes to SENT folder, no errors, but recipients (tried several diffrent) don't revieve any letters... tried to test from the same machine with telnet like it described there http://support.microsoft.com/kb/153119 ant everything looks ok...

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• SMTP IP - Bad reputation, how do I work around?

  - by Louis van Tonder

  I recently had a spamming incident and got listed on a blacklist. I have rectified the issue, removed from the blacklist, but my IP reputation is now classified as a high volume sender. What is the best way to rectify this? I have an additional IP address. I am thinking configure my server to make outbound SMTP connections using the other IP. My questions are: How long does it take for my reputation to stabilize again? How do I configure my server/mailserver to use a specified outbound IP? Setup: Server 2008 Web hMailserver 2 IPs configured on one NIC Cloud based server Your urgent help would be greatly appreciated. Cheers

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• How secure is using "Normal password" for SMTP with connection type = STARTTLS?

  - by harshath.jr

  I'm using an email client for the first time - for the most part I've always used gmail via the web interface. Now I'm setting up thunderbird to connect to an email server of my own (on my own server, own domain name, etc). The server machine (and the email server on it) was preconfigured for me. Now i figured out away by which I'm able to send and receive email, but I noticed that in the outgoing and incoming servers section, the connection type was STARTTLS (and not SSL/TLS), and the Authentication Type was "Normal Password". Does this mean that the password will be sent across in plain text? I'm very paranoid about security - its the only way that it works for me. Can someone please post links that explain how SMTP (my outbound server) and IMAP (my inbound server) servers work, and what connection type means what? Thanks! PS: If this question does not belong here, please redirect me.

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• It's possible to use google smtp for sending email from my server?

  - by Magnetic_dud

  Well, I am becoming crazy to let my email deliver to gmail/hotmail from my new ip. Last year, i had no problems with my past ip, but now my emails go straight to the spam folder of gmail and hotmail. I checked with mxtoolbox.com and i am not blacklisted, not an open proxy, rdns is configured the right way, SPF policy is present on the DNS. My spf is v=spf1 a mx ~all But, still, I am filtered. So, I am wondering: since gmail does not accept my emails, it's possible to use gmail smtp server to deliver all mails from my server? AFAIK, it will change all the "from" address, but maybe there is a way to not let it happen?

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• Solution to: Hotmail Senders receiving NDR : “550-Please turn on SMTP Authentication in your mail client…”

  - by Tony Yustein

  Original question is here original question I can not answer to that question because the system requires me to have 10 credits, very nice.... This error is based mostly on mobile devices, mostly on iPhones and mostly on mobile networks. This is how much I have narrowed it to. I believe: Hotmail checks where your are connecting from If it is a mobile network it requires additional security for sending messages but the default iPhone config does not have this option for hotmail if the user creates the hotmail account on the iPhone with SMTP AUTH enabled manually it might solve the situation Cheers, Tony

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• Setting Return-Path Header Other than Sender Address using SMTP command.

  - by Matt

  Greetings all. I'm faced with an issue with basic SMTP.. I would like to set the return-path header to an address other than the Sender address (i.e. From: Header) using SMTP command. I know MAIL -F sets it. However, I issued the following sequence of commands into my mail daemon (TELNET rlogin) and got the SMTP error 503 - Bad Command Sequence TELNET HELO: MAIL FROM : MAIL -F: RCPT TO: Subject: Test Bounce test mail for bounce functinlaity quit Can anyone of you please suggest me a possible way out of this? I will be grateful. Cheers, Matt.

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• Remote file access.

  - by Rob Rob

  Hi, We're needing to provide remote (read/write) access to a number of files on our network to several users (some technical, some non-technical) who will be running Windows. The non technical users will need to be able to access their files in an easy to use manner. From previous experience, we could do this with: (some sort of) VPN SSH and something like Dokan (i've only previously done this on linux with sshfs) WebDav FTP VPN and SSH access are more open that we need at present, so I'm leaning towards webdav, however I only have limited experience of it (setting up an SVN server several years ago), but my understanding is that users can access it through windows explorer. FTP I haven't had much experience of, as I've always used SFTP via ssh - but i'd imagine we could make this work in a similar way to ssh. So my question is - have I missed any obvious candidates for this task, or if webdav is (or isn't) suitable what are the security implications of using it for this (obviously https will be used for the transfers, etc). Thanks, Rob.

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• How to use WPA2 client mode in the Linux-based Cisco WAP4410N access point

  - by joechip

  I have a Cisco WAP4410N access point that I want to use as a client to connect to a WPA2 wireless network (for WLAN service monitoring purposes). Supposedly this access point supports a "Wireless Client/Repeater" mode that allows to do this. The Repeater function is optional (I have that box unchecked so that nobody can connect to this access point wirelessly). I have verified through SSH that the access point gets configured as a client and not as a Master. But it never associates to the SSID I ask it to. This is what iwconfig shows: ath04 IEEE 802.11ng ESSID:"myownssid" Mode:Managed Channel:0 Access Point: Not-Associated Bit Rate:0 kb/s Tx-Power:14 dBm Sensitivity=1/3 Retry:off RTS thr:off Fragment thr:off Encryption key:off Power Management:off Link Quality=0/94 Signal level=161/162 Noise level=161/161 Rx invalid nwid:0 Rx invalid crypt:0 Rx invalid frag:0 Tx excessive retries:0 Invalid misc:0 Missed beacon:0 Although I've never done this from the command line, I suppose I could use wpa_supplicant or wpa_client to associate it, but I don't know how to do that without editing configuration files and the filesystem is readonly. Besides, I would have to run those commands manually after every reboot. I'd like to know how to do this the Cisco way, if possible. If not, any trick to make this work would be useful. Edit: This is with the latest firmware, 2.0.4.2. And I found that not all of the filesystem is readonly, since /var and /tmp are mounted with type ramfs.

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• Recommendation on remote access setup for accessing customer systems

  - by gregmac

  I'm looking for a product recommendation (open or commercial) that will allow remote access to customer sites for tech support purposes. We need to be able to gain access to help troubleshoot problems on servers. Currently end up using anything from RDP on public IP, to various VPNs that clients happen to have, to webex-type sessions that require lots of interaction from both sides to get things working. This often means a problem that could take 10 minutes to solve takes an extra 30+ minutes messing around trying to get a connection up. There are multiple customer sites, which should NOT have access to each other. At each site, there is anywhere from 1 to 8 servers (Windows 2003 or 2008) that need to be accessed. Support connection to machines even if they're behind a firewall/router with no public IP Be able to selectively allow/deny access from customer site. Customer site should not be able to connect outbound to anywhere else (our systems, or other customer sites) Support multiple users from our end If not a VPN connection (where RDP could be used over top), should support: Remote desktop access, including copy/paste File transfers Preferably would have some way to list all remote systems, showing online/offline. Anyone have any suggestions?

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• Grant HTTP access based on unix user group

  - by Sander Marechal

  Is it possible to grant network access or HTTP access based on a user's group? At my company we want to set up an internal composer server using Satis to manage packages for the projects we write (e.g. on repository.mycompany.com), with the packages themselves in our SVN server (svn.mycompany.com). We have several webservers with many different users on them. Some users should be able to reach the composer and SVN server. Some should not. Users that should be able to reach these servers all belong to the same group. How can I set up Apache on the Composer and SVN server to only grant access to those users in that group? Alternatively, can I set up the webservers in such a way that only users from that group are able to make a connection to our Composer and SVN servers? The best thing we have come up with so far is using SSL client certificates. We simply place a client certificate on all servers which can be used to access Composer and SVN. Only the right usergroup will have read access to the certificate. A bit clunky but it may work. But I'm looking for something better.

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• Cannot access an application folder in Program files

  - by GiddyUpHorsey

  I recently installed Windows 7 Professional 64bit on a new machine. I installed an application using a ClickOnce installer. The application runs fine, but I cannot access the application folder it created in c:\Program files (x86). It bombs with access denied. I try to view the properties on the folder and it takes about 1 minute to display (other folders take 1 second). It says I cannot view any information because I'm not the owner. It doesn't say who the current owner is (instead - Unable to display current owner.) but says I can take ownership. When I try it fails again with Access Denied, even though I have administrative permissions. Why can't I access this folder nor take ownership?

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