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  • What is important when starting GUI programming, and pick from widget libraries [closed]

    - by jokester
    I have been a CLI programmer, and recently I found it will be a plus to learn GUI programming. In past, my experience and knowlegde was a bit messy. So you may imagine many detour were there in my way, that is true. And I want to avoid getting lost again if possible. When googling about existing GUI framework, I found it is hard to choose my start point from GTK, QT, and lot of less famous peers. What are important factors when you guys are facing that problem? Will it be a good idea to pick a small enough library and feel its fundamental ideas?

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  • What is "egoless programming"?

    - by Bob Murphy
    I first heard this term about fifteen years ago. My understanding is similar to that described in the Wikipedia article and a TechRepublic article: you work with your colleagues in a "friendly, collegiate way in which personal feelings are put aside". It includes things like doing peer reviews with mutual respect and a desire to learn, and not feeling like you "own" code, so if somebody has a suggestion or says there's a bug or needs to change it, you don't get defensive about it. I've also thought it was largely about having an attitude that makes for good relations with other programmers with the goal of improving the code. So I haven't seen it as being incompatible with taking pride in the quality of your work or feeling regret if something you did caused your customer a problem. However, an answer to a recent question makes me think some other programmers have different understandings about "egoless programming". So what is the correct definition? And what are its implications?

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  • Watch syntax help

    - by Jason
    In my Systems Programming class, there are weekly programming experiments, and I'm having trouble with the current one. The objective is to write a C program that slowly writes a string of text to a file, metered by usleep() in a 100 count for loop. The goal of the experiment is to observe the file size buffer in action via the watch command. However, I can't get it to work using watch -d ./output What syntax do I need for the watch command to see the changes made to the file size?

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  • Books about Windows Os Programming [closed]

    - by LostInLib
    I'm trying to develop a desktop application which is similar to CCleaner. But I'm having problems with R&D resources... I can't find good books about Windows Operating System Programming Topic Examples; Explaining Windows 7 (or even 8) registry. Which registry entry turn on/off "showing desktop icons" Or, What is Windows registry defrag?, How can you defrag registry?, How can you optimize windows startup for( Windows 7 ) etc. I googled my questions, find msdn-some stackoverflow topics etc. But I can't find a book about low-level explaining current windows 7 operating system... What I'm missing ? Thanks for your any input... and sorry, I don't know is this the right place to ask that question, but I asked anyway...

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  • Is programming a SubCulture? [closed]

    - by Trufa
    I was going through this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subculture Which got mee thinking is programming a subculture? After the a while I started thinking it really hard, and if you go really in depth this is a very complex and interesting question to ask. YOu can even ask yourself if (heavy) internet (social) users are an subculture and programmers a culture within. I think it might be an interesting discussion, hope you like it! NOTE: I linked the wiki article because it might be a good baseline, maybe you can base you answer on Ken Gelder´s proposal to distinguish subcultures. But it should be based on a little bit more that intuition. Thanks in advance! Trufa

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  • News about Programming Entity Framework 2nd Edition

    Programming Entity Framework 2nd Edition (based on the RTM of VS2010/.NET 4.0) is currently available on Safari Rough Cuts at http://oreilly.com/catalog/9780596807252. At this point most of the chapters are there. You’ll find 2-23. Note that chapter 4 will be broken into 4 and 5 in the final edition. I changed the chapter numbering after chapter 16 to accommodate this which is why there is no chapter 17. Chapters 24 is about n-Tier CLient applications using an WPF example and chapter 25 is...Did you know that DotNetSlackers also publishes .net articles written by top known .net Authors? We already have over 80 articles in several categories including Silverlight. Take a look: here.

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  • Anti-depressant and programming

    - by user12358
    I wanted to ask your opinion on anti-depressants, since I took them daily for 3 years now, but I can't be sure if I'm less perfomant with them or without, since I never withdrawed. I'm still at school at the age of 25, still having some motivation problems (for example I can't get used to do something at school if I don't think it will teach me something), but I'm quite motivated to work in the video-game field, since I have some personnal projects in mind. I know C++ programming etc, I'm still learning techniques, but do you think I should try more to do my project instead of just following the work I'm assigned to ? Have you had experience with depression or anti-depressants ? How did it affect your work ? Do you think that being depressed or half-depressed can improve creativity ?

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  • Programming vs Planning

    - by MattW
    Recently I have been tasked with more High level planning assignments due to the lead developer of my team leaving. I hate long term planning. My brain just doesn't naturally seem wired for it and I am not interested enough in it to spend the time to learn it (it is hard enough to keep up with the programming side of the picture). Can I still be a good programmer without being a high level planer too? Are you expected to be good at planning out the entire product and picking a date, as part of being a senior programmer. Is it possible to be a good programmer and not a high level planner?

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  • Programming Language Family Tree?

    - by user134353
    As a man interested in programming, I must ask if there is a cataloged hierarchy of languages. I'd like to learn to actually understand what's happening- that is to say, I don't want to use a compiler until I understand what a compiler does and how to make my own. I really do want to start from total scratch. I'm told that means "machine code"? I don't know. What I do know is that "C++" is not the start. I'm not interested in learning that until I can actually break software down to its very base and see how the pieces go together.

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  • O'Reilly Deal of the day - 5/JSep/2012 - Programming Windows 8 Applications with C#

    - by TATWORTH
    Today's deal of the day from O'Reilly at http://shop.oreilly.com/product/0636920024200.do?code=DEAL is Programming Windows 8 Applications with C# ."With Early Release e-books, you get books in their earliest form — the author's raw and unedited content as he or she writes — so you can take advantage of these technologies long before the official release of these titles. You'll also receive updates when significant changes are made, new chapters as they're written, and the final e-book bundle. If you want to build Windows 8 applications for desktops and the forthcoming Microsoft Surface tablet PC, this book will show you how to work with the Metro design language and the Windows RT operating system. You’ll learn this new landscape step-by-step, including the minute system details and design specifications necessary to innovate and build a variety of Windows 8 apps. It’s ideal for .NET developers who use C#."

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  • Programming Language for RF scanner [closed]

    - by Sid
    I am a Software Developer mostly on Windows System. I have been tasked to create an App Program for an RF Barcode Scanner. Which I don't have any experience in this kind of software. I am open to learn new Programming Languages to develop the software for this barcode scanner. From which I see on our meeting. It uses Windows or Windows Mobile as OS. Can someone direct me to a tut site or just tell me what language I should use? Requirements is mostly, Log In, UI Entry of Details + Barcode, Process Button. Connection To SQL Server via Wifi Access Point to call the procedure afterwards. I am not developing a Barcode scanner, I am developing a UI Software like a Mobile App. I tried to google but I dont know what exact keywords I should search for. My question is, what PL is mostly used to develop this kind of softwares.

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  • Monitor screen size and programming ease

    - by rrazd
    I recently heard that a big part in successful/quick debugging and easing the process of programming is to use a big screen. I may be purchasing a new computer in the future and this has me wondering: 1)Is the aforementioned statement actually true or is it a bit of a stretch? 2)Have you noticed that this plays a significant enough part to buy a bigger screen if the bigger screen is significantly more expensive? 3)Is it common for developers to work on 13'' laptop screen as their main (and only) workstation (this is what I currently develop on) or is this actually disadvantageous? This may be subjective but any professional opinions/experiences would be greatly appreciated!

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  • Road to advanced Programming [closed]

    - by Srivalli Chitrapu
    I am currently working as an SDET(Software devlopment Engineer in Test). I have been doing some programming in C# as my job needs. I want to expand my knowledge and experience by creating some simple tools and applications of my own. Consider this like academic projects that are created by students at the end of their course . The idea is to have a practical knowledge on the subjects that I have a theoritical knowledge about. For Eg - I have read about multithreading and have worked on the examples but I do not have a grip over the concepts. In order to get a good grip over the concepts I want to work over some projects involving multithreading, starting with a simple one. Similarly other concepts like REST/SOAP web services using WCF. How should I design a curriculum for my self to go about learning these concepts/ technologies and creating some projects of my own. Thanks, Srivalli

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  • Part-time Programming Job London

    - by Bluechip Solutions
    I am a student at Middlesex Universtity, London studying Information Technology. I really love software development and I have taught myself how to write HTML + CSS, JavaScript (I use jQuery and AngularJS) and Java (I learnt this in school). I have developed few apps (a desktop app in Java and a mobile app with AngularJS and PhoneGap) I am looking at applying for a part-time programming job to develop myself. Are there part time jobs available for someone like me and are my skill set enough to get me a job? I understand this topic may not be ideal here but this is the only place I know can provide me answers. Thank you!

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  • Should I read Kochan's "Programming in C" (10 years old) [on hold]

    - by notypist
    I plan on learning Obj-C and so I decided to do it by the book and learn C first. The problem: S.G. Kochan's highly acclaimed book "Programming in C" (3rd edition) is almost ten years old now1. I really want to get started and everywhere I looked this seemed like the book for beginners with an assumed zero-knowledge in programming2. So, should I buy it or not? 1: A 4th edition is available to preorder but it's only due in March, 2014! 2: I know some HTML, CSS, and a tiny bit of PHP.

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  • how to enrich my programming background? [on hold]

    - by city
    I am not sure whether I post my question in right place. I am a master student in computer science and I will graduate next year.Recently, I failed in an interview. Because (at least I think) the interviewer did not think my background strong enough although I finished 5 courses projects and currently working on other 2 projects in graduate school. It seems that nowadays, recruiters like these candidates who finish some projects out of school/work. So I wanna enrich my background. So, I hope you guys recommend some java/C++ projects to me, which I can finish in two or three months. And it would be better if concurrency programming or other fancy skills are needed.

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  • How should I start refactoring my mostly-procedural C++ application?

    - by oob
    We have a program written in C++ that is mostly procedural, but we do use some C++ containers from the standard library (vector, map, list, etc). We are constantly making changes to this code, so I wouldn't call it a stagnant piece of legacy code that we can just wrap up. There are a lot of issues with this code making it harder and harder for us to make changes, but I see the three biggest issues being: Many of the functions do more (way more) than one thing We violate the DRY principle left and right We have global variables and global state up the wazoo. I was thinking we should attack areas 1 and 2 first. Along the way, we can "de-globalize" our smaller functions from the bottom up by passing in information that is currently global as parameters to the lower level functions from the higher level functions and then concentrate on figuring out how to removing the need for global variables as much as possible. I just finished reading Code Complete 2 and The Pragmatic Programmer, and I learned a lot, but I am feeling overwhelmed. I would like to implement unit testing, change from a procedural to OO approach, automate testing, use a better logging system, fully validate all input, implement better error handling and many other things, but I know if we start all this at once, we would screw ourselves. I am thinking the three I listed are the most important to start with. Any suggestions are welcome. We are a team of two programmers mostly with experience with in-house scripting. It is going to be hard to justify taking the time to refactor, especially if we can't bill the time to a client. Believe it or not, this project has been successful enough to keep us busy full time and also keep several consultants busy using it for client work.

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  • Confusion of the "stack" in Assembly-level programming

    - by Bigyellow Bastion
    What is the "stack" exactly? I've read articles, tried comprehending it through my understanding, experience, and educated guessing of programming and computers, but I'm a bit perplexed here. The "stack" is a region in RAM? Or is it some other space I'm uncertain of here? The processor pushes bits through registers on to the stack in RAM, or do I have it wrong here? Also, the processor moves the bits from the RAM to the register to "process" it, such as maybe a compare, arithmetic, etc. But what actually can help understand, in some visual or verbal description or both, of how to implement the idea of a "stack" here? Is the stack actually the same in terminology with a "machine stack" meaning it's in RAM? I'm sorry, I don't want to solicit debate or arguments, but I really could use some help here if anyone can straighten things out. TO ADD: I know what a software stack is. I know about LIFO, FIFO, etc. I just want to gain a better understanding of the Assembly-level stack, what it is, where it is, how exactly it works, etc. Thanks for reading!

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  • Book Review - Programming Windows Azure by Siriram Krishnan

    - by BuckWoody
    As part of my professional development, I’ve created a list of books to read throughout the year, starting in June of 2011. This a review of the first one, called Programming Windows Azure by Siriram Krishnan. You can find my entire list of books I’m reading for my career here: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/buckwoody/archive/2011/06/07/head-in-the-clouds-eyes-on-the-books.aspx  Why I Chose This Book: As part of my learning style, I try to read multiple books about a single subject. I’ve found that at least 3 books are necessary to get the right amount of information to me. This is a “technical” work, meaning that it deals with technology and not business, writing or other facets of my career. I’ll have a mix of all of those as I read along. I chose this work in addition to others I’ve read since it covers everything from an introduction to more advanced topics in a single book. It also has some practical examples of actually working with the product, particularly on storage. Although it’s dated, many examples normally translate. I also saw that it had pretty good reviews. What I learned: I learned a great deal about storage, and many useful code snippets. I do think that there could have been more of a focus on the application fabric - but of course that wasn’t as mature a feature when this book was written. I learned some great architecture examples, and in one section I learned more about encryption. In that example, however, I would rather have seen the examples go the other way - the book focused on moving data from on-premise to Azure storage in an encrypted fashion. Using the Application Fabric I would rather see sensitive data left in a hybrid fashion on premise, and connect to for the Azure application. Even so, the examples were very useful. If you’re looking for a good “starter” Azure book, this is a good choice. I also recommend the last chapter as a quick read for a DBA, or Database Administrator. It’s not very long, but useful. Note that the limits described are incorrect - which is one of the dangers of reading a book about any cloud offering. The services offered are updated so quickly that the information is in constant danger of being “stale”. Even so, I found this a useful book, which I believe will help me work with Azure better. Raw Notes: I take notes as I read, calling that process “reading with a pencil”. I find that when I do that I pay attention better, and record some things that I need to know later. I’ll take these notes, categorize them into a OneNote notebook that I synchronize in my Live.com account, and that way I can search them from anywhere. I can even read them on the web, since the Live.com has a OneNote program built in. Note that these are the raw notes, so they might not make a lot of sense out of context - I include them here so you can watch my though process. Programming Windows Azure by Siriram Krishnan: Learning about how to select applications suitable for Distributed Technology. Application Fabric gets the least attention; probably because it was newer at the time. Very clear (Chapter One) Good foundation Background and history, but not too much I normally arrange my descriptions differently, starting with the use-cases and moving to physicality, but this difference helps me. Interesting that I am reading this using Safari Books Online, which uses many of these concepts. Taught me some new aspects of a Hypervisor – very low-level information about the Azure Fabric (not to be confused with the Application Fabric feature) (Chapter Two) Good detail of what is included in the SDK. Even more is available now. CS = Cloud Service (Chapter 3) Place Storage info in the configuration file, since it can be streamed in-line with a running app. Ditto for logging, and keep separated configs for staging and testing. Easy-switch in and switch out.  (Chapter 4) There are two Runtime API’s, one of external and one for internal. Realizing how powerful this paradigm really is. Some places seem light, and to drop off but perhaps that’s best. Managing API is not charged, which is nice. I don’t often think about the price, until it comes to an actual deployment (Chapter 5) Csmanage is something I want to dig into deeper. API requires package moves to Blob storage first, so it needs a URL. Csmanage equivalent can be written in Unix scripting using openssl. Upgrades are possible, and you use the upgradeDomainCount attribute in the Service-Definition.csdef file  Always use a low-privileged account to test on the dev fabric, since Windows Azure runs in partial trust. Full trust is available, but can be dangerous and must be well-thought out. (Chapter 6) Learned how to run full CMD commands in a web window – not that you would ever do that, but it was an interesting view into those links. This leads to a discussion on hosting other runtimes (such as Java or PHP) in Windows Azure. I got an expanded view on this process, although this is where the book shows its age a little. Books can be a problem for Cloud Computing for this reason – things just change too quickly. Windows Azure storage is not eventually consistent – it is instantly consistent with multi-phase commit. Plumbing for this is internal, not required to code that. (Chapter 7) REST API makes the service interoperable, hybrid, and consistent across code architectures. Nicely done. Use affinity groups to keep data and code together. Side note: e-book readers need a common “notes” feature. There’s a decent quick description of REST in this chapter. Learned about CloudDrive code – PowerShell sample that mounts Blob storage as a local provider. Works against Dev fabric by default, can be switched to Account. Good treatment in the storage chapters on the differences between using Dev storage and Azure storage. These can be mitigated. No, blobs are not of any size or number. Not a good statement (Chapter 8) Blob storage is probably Azure’s closest play to Infrastructure as a Service (Iaas). Blob change operations must be authenticated, even when public. Chapters on storage are pretty in-depth. Queue Messages are base-64 encoded (Chapter 9) The visibility timeout ensures processing of message in a disconnected system. Order is not guaranteed for a message, so if you need that set an increasing number in the queue mechanism. While Queues are accessible via REST, they are not public and are secured by default. Interesting – the header for a queue request includes an estimated count. This can be useful to create more worker roles in a dynamic system. Each Entity (row) in the Azure Table service is atomic – all or nothing. (Chapter 10) An entity can have up to 255 Properties  Use “ID” for the class to indicate the key value, or use the [DataServiceKey] Attribute.  LINQ makes working with the Azure Table Service much easier, although Interop is certainly possible. Good description on the process of selecting the Partition and Row Key.  When checking for continuation tokens for pagination, include logic that falls out of the check in case you are at the last page.  On deleting a storage object, it is instantly unavailable, however a background process is dispatched to perform the physical deletion. So if you want to re-create a storage object with the same name, add retry logic into the code. Interesting approach to deleting an index entity without having to read it first – create a local entity with the same keys and apply it to the Azure system regardless of change-state.  Although the “Indexes” description is a little vague, it’s interesting to see a Folding and Stemming discussion a-la the Porter Stemming Algorithm. (Chapter 11)  Presents a better discussion of indexes (at least inverted indexes) later in the chapter. Great treatment for DBA’s in Chapter 11. We need to work on getting secondary indexes in Table storage. There is a limited form of transactions called “Entity Group Transactions” that, although they have conditions, makes a transactional system more possible. Concurrency also becomes an issue, but is handled well if you’re using Data Services in .NET. It watches the Etag and allows you to take action appropriately. I do not recommend using Azure as a location for secure backups. In fact, I would rather have seen the examples in (Chapter 12) go the other way, showing how data could be brought back to a local store as a DR or HA strategy. Good information on cryptography and so on even so. Chapter seems out of place, and should be combined with the Blob chapter.  (Chapter 13) on SQL Azure is dated, although the base concepts are OK.  Nice example of simple ADO.NET access to a SQL Azure (or any SQL Server Really) database.  

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  • Java Champion Jorge Vargas on Extreme Programming, Geolocalization, and Latin American Programmers

    - by Janice J. Heiss
    In a new interview, up on otn/java, titled “An Interview with Java Champion Jorge Vargas,” Jorge Vargas, a leading Mexican developer, discusses the process of introducing companies to Enterprise JavaBeans through the application of Extreme Programming. Among other things, he gives workshops about building code with agile techniques and creates a master project to build all apps based on Scrum, XP methods and Kanban. He focuses on building core components such as security, login, and menus. Vargas remarks, “This may sound easy, but it’s not—the process takes months and hundreds of hours, but it can be controlled, and with small iterations, we can translate customer requirements and problems of legacy systems to the new system.” In regard to his work with geolocalization, he says: “We have launched a beta program of Yumbling, a geolocalization-based app, with mobile clients for BlackBerry, iPhone, Android, and Nokia, with a Web interface. The first challenge was to design a simple universal mechanism providing information to all clients and to minimize maintenance provision to them. I try not to generalize a lot—to avoid low performance or misunderstanding in processing data. We use the latest Java EE technology—during the last five years, I’ve taught people how to use Java EE efficiently.” Check out the interview here.

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  • Documenting and enforcing programming standards and guidelines for shared library

    - by dreza
    Myself and another developer with the go ahead from our IT director have started a general purpose library in .NET with the intention that it will provide many common purpose classes that we use in our day to day development. During discussions and design of the library we have come up with a set of standards that we want the library to follow to ensure it is maintained and expanded on in a consistent manner. What is the best way to ensure these decisions we made for the library get feed to the other developers who might be using and adding to this library in the future. One of our decisions was to ensure we review all checked in code so we expect initially there to be some differences in coding styles of individuals not fitting in with the project standards. Some ideas I had were: Add a Read-me.txt to the project that outline the guidelines and standards Send an email out to everyone in the team to let them know about the project etc Call a team meeting to go through this new project and our expectations and standards we were aiming to follow Try and enforce the standards via Visual Studio (not sure if this would be possible or how just an idea) At the moment there is no general company programming standards so this would be a first really insofar as we are creating a standard that different project teams would need to adhere to.

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  • How to dealing with the "programming blowhard"?

    - by Peter G.
    (Repost, I posted this in the wrong section before, sorry) So I'm sure everyone has run into this person at one point or another, someone catches wind of your project or idea and initially shows some interest. You get to talking about some of your methods and usually around this time they interject stating how you should use method X instead, or just use library Y. But not as a friendly suggestion, but bordering on a commandment. Often repeating the same advice over and over like a overzealous parrot. Personally, I like to reinvent the wheel when I'm learning, or even just for fun, even if it turns out worse than what's been done before. But this person apparently cannot fathom recreating ANY utility for such purposes, or possibly try something that doesn't strictly follow traditional OOP practices, and will settle for nothing except their sense of perfection, and thus naturally heave their criticism sludge down my ears full force. To top it off, they eventually start justifying their advice (retardation) by listing all the incredibly complex things they've coded single-handedly (usually along the lines of "trust me, I've made/used program X for a long time, blah blah blah"). Now, I'm far from being a programming master, I'm probably not even that good, and as such I value advice and critique, but I think advice/critique has a time and place. There is also a big difference between being helpful and being narcissistic. In the past I probably would have used a somewhat stronger George Carlin style dismissal, but I don't think burning bridges is the best approach anymore. Maybe I'm just an asshole, but do you have any advice on how to deal with this kind of verbal flogging?

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  • What's the ethos of the programming profession?

    - by mac
    I am one of those people who became professional programmer by chance, rather than by choice: I moved to a country whose main language I couldn't speak, I knew how to code... and here I am a few years later. Because of this I never really gave much a thought about the ethos of being a programmer, and working as a freelance I neither had many occasions to discuss this with fellow colleagues. Among others, Dictionary.com define the word ethos as follows: The fundamental character or spirit of a culture; the underlying sentiment that informs the beliefs, customs, or practices of a group or society; dominant assumptions of a people or period. So my question is: How would you describe the ethos of being a programmer, and why would you say so? Please note that: my question is different than this and this other ones (although you might have chosen to become a programmer because of the programmer'ethos or you might think that part of the programmer ethos is about "programming being a meaningful profession"). beside the "how/what" part of the question, there is a "why" part too! :) I would appreciate if the answer could be based not only on the idealised vision of the hero-programmer, but also on real working and life experience. Thank you in advance for your time and contributions!

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  • The effects of Agile Programming can alter the five desirable properties of modeling tools and techniques

    The effects of Agile Programming can alter the five desirable properties of modeling tools and techniques as documented by Pfleeger. The agile methodology does promote human understanding and communication through the use of short iterative software development life cycles which forces stakeholders to review the project and adjust the project for any requirement changes.  Due to the consistent evaluations of a project and requirements, process are continually being refined, upgraded, and compared against other alternatives to ensure the best design delivered to the client. Due to the short repetitive development cycles, increased time is devoted to process management due to the fact that requirements and designs could be constantly changing. This requires additional forecasting, monitoring, and planning for each iteration. Because things can change so rapidly, automated guidance in performing process must be updated for each iteration because the environment and the available reusable process could change. In addition, the original guidance and suggestions for the project also need to be updated to account for these changes as well.   In essence the automation of process execution is supported by the agile methodology because during every iteration all processes must be tested, evaluated to ensure process integrity and compliance with the customer’s requirements. I do not think the agile approach diminishes modeling, in fact I think it increases the modeling because before the start of every development cycle, modeling must be checked for accuracy based on the changed requirements. So in essence the reduced time spent initially designing the models is in fact gained as the project completes every iteration of the project.

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  • How do I find a programming internship / practice?

    - by user828584
    I'm taking the SAT soon, and quickly heading toward the chaos of figuring out which college's I will be able to attend, and how on Earth I'll be able to afford it. I would like to be able to gain some experience in programming or web development, but I don't know where to look. I've been trying my best to learn over the past year, and have been doing alright in C# and the web languages (HTML, PHP, CSS, javascript). I have no idea where to look though. I've asked similar questions and rummaged through old questions on here, and they all say nothing specifically. The main two points are always "Contribute to open source projects" and "Find a company and ask to be a part of it." I don't know how to find either of the two. I've looked online at github and source forge, and the like, but all the projects are already so progressed and I just don't have the experience needed to bring myself up to speed with their code. I don't have much experience in code management, and I don't know how to get it. I would be ecstatic to be able to start a project with a group of more experienced members, but, like I said, I have no clue how to find these people.

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