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  • "Do it right, against customer's wishes" - how is it called?

    - by SF.
    We know the optimal situation of negotiating corrections of specifications with the customer, getting the specs to do what the client wanted, not what they said or thought they wanted. That's negotiating, explaining. Sometimes, we're unable to convince the client. We're forced to produce broken as designed. This, called "demonology" by merit of mages summoning demons and demons fulfilling their wishes very literally, causing the mage's demise as result, is another approach that will leave the customer very dissatisfied once they realize their error, and of course try to pin the blame on the developer. Now I just faced a very different approach: the customer created simple specs that fail to account for some critical caveat, and is completely unwilling to fix them, admit the obvious errors and accept suggested corrections. The product made to these specs will be critically broken, and possibly might cost human lives. Still, it's too late to drop the contract entirely. The contract has punitive clauses for that, ones we can't really accept. The boss' decision? We do the work right and lie to the customer that we did it according to the specs. The algorithms in question are hidden deep enough under the surface, the product will do the work just fine, won't fail in the caveat situation, and unless someone digs too deep, they will never discover we didn't break it as requested. Is there some common name for this tactics of execution of specs?

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  • Model relationships in ASP.NET MVC

    - by Fabiano
    Hi I recently started evaluating ASP.NET MVC. While it is really easy and quick to create Controllers and Views for Models with only primitive properties (like shown in the starter videos from the official page) I didn't find any good way to work with references to complex types. Let's say, I have these Models: public class Customer { public int Id { get; set; } public string Name { get; set; } public Address Address { get; set; } public IList<Order> Orders { get; set; } } public class Address { public int Id { get; set; } public string ..... ..... } public class Order { public int Id { get; set; } public Customer Customer { get; set; } public string OrderName { get; set; } ..... } Note that I don't have foreign keys in the models (like it's typical for LINQ to SQL, which is also used in the sample video) but an object reference. How can I handle such references in asp.net mvc? Does someone has some good tips or links to tutorials about this problem? maybe including autobinding with complex types.

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  • Who should determine team size?

    - by TaylorOtwell
    Developers, managers, or customers? I was recently involved in a situation where I felt like the customers were arbitrarily demanding for more developers on a team which already had too many developers. They were scared the project was going to be late (and it probably will be). Personally, I was scared we were going to fulfill Brook's Law. The group of programmers already lacked in-depth business knowledge, and some were even new to the technology (.NET), yet the customer wanted to add more developers who had even less business knowledge. The impression was that this would make the project get done quicker. I started wondering if the customer, who is extremely bright, but presumably knows little about IT project management, should really be the one determining team size.

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  • Oracle on Oracle: Is that all?

    - by Darin Pendergraft
    On October 17th, I posted a short blog and a podcast interview with Chirag Andani, talking about how Oracle IT uses its own IDM products. Blog link here. In response, I received a comment from reader Jaime Cardoso ([email protected]) who posted: “- You could have talked about how by deploying Oracle's Open standards base technology you were able to integrate any new system in your infrastructure in days. - You could have talked about how by deploying federation you were enabling the business side to keep all their options open in terms of companies to buy and sell while maintaining perfect employee and customer's single view. - You could have talked about how you are now able to cut response times to your audit and security teams into 1/10th of your former times Instead you spent 6 minutes talking about single sign on and self provisioning? If I didn't knew your IDM offer so well I would now be wondering what its differences from Microsoft's offer was. Sorry for not giving a positive comment here but, please your IDM suite is very good and, you simply aren't promoting it well enough” So I decided to send Jaime a note asking him about his experience, and to get his perspective on what makes the Oracle products great. What I found out is that Jaime is a very experienced IDM Architect with several major projects under his belt. Darin Pendergraft: Can you tell me a bit about your experience? How long have you worked in IT, and what is your IDM experience? Jaime Cardoso: I started working in "serious" IT in 1998 when I became Netscape's technical specialist in Portugal. Netscape Portugal didn't exist so, I was working for their VAR here. Most of my work at the time was with Netscape's mail server and LDAP server. Since that time I've been bouncing between the system's side like Sun resellers, Solaris stuff and even worked with Sun's Engineering in the making of an Hierarchical Storage Product (Sun CIS if you know it) and the application's side, mostly in LDAP and IDM. Over the years I've been doing support, service delivery and pre-sales / architecture design of IDM solutions in most big customers in Portugal, to name a few projects: - The first European deployment of Sun Access Manager (SAPO – Portugal Telecom) - The identity repository of 5/5 of the Biggest Portuguese banks - The Portuguese government federation of services project DP: OK, in your blog response, you mentioned 3 topics: 1. Using Oracle's standards based architecture; (you) were able to integrate any new system in days: can you give an example? What systems, how long did it take, number of apps/users/accounts/roles etc. JC: It's relatively easy to design a user management strategy for a static environment, or if you simply assume that you're an <insert vendor here> shop and all your systems will bow to that vendor's will. We've all seen that path, the use of proprietary technologies in interoperability solutions but, then reality kicks in. As an ISP I recall that I made the technical decision to use Active Directory as a central authentication system for the entire IT infrastructure. Clients, systems, apps, everything was there. As a good part of the systems and apps were running on UNIX, then a connector became needed in order to have UNIX boxes to authenticate against AD. And, that strategy worked but, each new machine required the component to be installed, monitoring had to be made for that component and each new app had to be independently certified. A self care user portal was an ongoing project, AD access assumes the client is inside the domain, something the ISP's customers (and UNIX boxes) weren't nor had any intention of ever being. When the Windows 2008 rollout was done, Microsoft changed the Active Directory interface. The Windows administrators didn't have enough know-how about directories and the way systems outside the MS world behaved so, on the go live, things weren't properly tested and a general outage followed. Several hours and 1 roll back later, everything was back working. But, the ISP still had to change all of its applications to work with the new access methods and reset the effort spent on the self service user portal. To keep with the same strategy, they would also have to trust Microsoft not to change interfaces again. Simply by putting up an Oracle LDAP server in the middle and replicating the user info from the AD into LDAP, most of the problems went away. Even systems for which no AD connector existed had PAM in them so, integration was made at the OS level, fully supported by the OS supplier. Sun Identity Manager already had a self care portal, combined with a user workflow so, all the clearances had to be given before the account was created or updated. Adding a new system as a client for these authentication services was simply a new checkbox in the OS installer and, even True64 systems were, for the first time integrated also with a 5 minute work of a junior system admin. True, all the windows clients and MS apps still went to the AD for their authentication needs so, from the start everybody knew that they weren't 100% free of migration pains but, now they had a single point of problems to look at. If you're looking for numbers: - 500K directory entries (users) - 2-300 systems After the initial setup, I personally integrated about 20 systems / apps against LDAP in 1 day while being watched by the different IT teams. The internal IT staff did the rest. DP: 2. Using Federation allows the business to keep options open for buying and selling companies, and yet maintain a single view for both employee and customer. What do you mean by this? Can you give an example? JC: The market is dynamic. The company that's being bought today tomorrow will be sold again. Companies that spread on different markets may see the regulator forcing a sale of part of a company due to monopoly reasons and companies that are in multiple countries have to comply with different legislations. Our job, as IT architects, while addressing the customers and employees authentication services, is quite hard and, quite contrary. On one hand, we need to give access to all of our employees to the relevant systems, apps and resources and, we already have marketing talking with us trying to find out who's a customer of the bough company but not from ours to address. On the other hand, we have to do that and keep in mind we may have to break up all that effort and that different countries legislation may became a problem with a full integration plan. That's a job for user Federation. you don't want to be the one who's telling your President that he will sell that business unit without it's customer's database (making the deal worth a lot less) or that the buyer will take with him a copy of your entire customer's database. Federation enables you to start controlling permissions to users outside of your traditional authentication realm. So what if the people of that company you just bought are keeping their old logins? Do you want, because of that, to have a dedicated system for their expenses reports? And do you want to keep their sales (and pre-sales) people out of the loop in terms of your group's path? Control the information flow, establish a Federation trust circle and give access to your apps to users that haven't (yet?) been brought into your internal login systems. You can still see your users in a unified view, you obviously control if a user has access to any particular application, either that user is in your local database or stored in a directory on the other side of the world. DP: 3. Cut response times of audit and security teams to 1/10. Is this a real number? Can you give an example? JC: No, I don't have any backing for this number. One of the companies I did system Administration for has a SOX compliance policy in place (I remind you that I live in Portugal so, this definition of SOX may be somewhat different from what you're used to) and, every time the audit team says they'll do another audit, we have to negotiate with them the size of the sample and we spend about 15 man/days gathering all the required info they ask. I did some work with Sun's Identity auditor and, from what I've been seeing, Oracle's product is even better and, I've seen that most of the information they ask would have been provided in a few hours with the help of this tool. I do stand by what I said here but, to be honest, someone from Identity Auditor team would do a much better job than me explaining this time savings. Jaime is right: the Oracle IDM products have a lot of business value, and Oracle IT is using them for a lot more than I was able to cover in the short podcast that I posted. I want to thank Jaime for his comments and perspective. We want these blog posts to be informative and honest – so if you have feedback for the Oracle IDM team on any topic discussed here, please post your comments below.

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  • 12/14 IDC Webcast on Insurance Distribution Strategies -- Manage Data and Engage Customers

    - by charles.knapp
    The insurance industry faces unprecedented challenges from new competition, more rigorous regulatory obligations, tighter capital restrictions, and more demanding customers. The winners will be those insurers that can successfully manage complex and disparate data resources to engage successfully with their customers, building trust through outstanding, multi-channel customer service with the insurer and its agents. At the heart of all these issues is the ability of insurers to engage directly with agents and customers using their preferred channels; measure risk and profitability accurately, and quickly to enable swift decision-making; and transform aging IT infrastructure so that the business can drive down costs and protect eroding margins. In this one-hour webcast, moderated by Insurance & Technology Magazine Executive Editor Anthony O'Donnell, you will learn about critical distribution management strategies that work. Join Peter Farley of analyst firm IDC Financial Insights, Scott Mampre of Capgemini, and Srini Venkat of Oracle Insurance to learn ways to maximize improvements to competitiveness, customer service, operating efficiencies - and ultimately profitability and growth. Please join us!

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  • Supply Chain Professionals: Get Connected, Stay Current

    - by Stephen Slade
    Each day, thousands of supply chain professionals like you face challenges to lower inventory, collaborate better with distant partners and stretch the value from depleting resources.  Meeting ever-changing customer demands, with products getting to market faster and lifecycles shortning, the challenges grow even faster.  How do we respond? It’s amazing how much material is available on-line for our supply chain community. Many want to stay informed and be connected with better information. One great way to stay current on rapidly changing markets and solutions is to subscribe to the Value Chain Transformation newsletter published quarterly by the content staff at Oracle. In this edition, there’s a few great articles on Cloud, OpenWorld, events and products with solid customer testimony to share with you, our supply chain community.  Below is the link to the newsletter and how to subscribe Sept ‘12 Value Chain Newsletter: http://www.oracle.com/us/corporate/newsletter/archive/value-chain-and-procurement-1559127.html Subscription information is located at the bottom of the newsletter.

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  • More Opportunities to Discuss IDM 11g R2

    - by Naresh Persaud
    If you attended any of the recent webcasts, then you heard several customer testimonials discussing early adoption of Identity Management 11g R2.  If you missed a chance to connect with product managers from Oracle in person regarding the new release, here are a few physical events that you may wish to attend.Click on a city below to register. Atlanta IdM 11g ForumWednesday, December 5, 2012 Orlando IdM 11g ForumThursday, December 6, 2012 Scottsdale IDM 11g ForumTuesday, December 11, 2012 Dallas IDM 11g Forum Thursday, December 13, 2012 If you missed any of the customer presentations you can read the Kaiser and BT testimonials in Oracle Magazine - Security on The Move.

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  • Seeding repository Rhino Mocks

    - by ahsteele
    I am embarking upon my first journey of test driven development in C#. To get started I'm using MSTest and Rhino.Mocks. I am attempting to write my first unit tests against my ICustomerRepository. It seems tedious to new up a Customer for each test method. In ruby-on-rails I'd create a seed file and load the customer for each test. It seems logical that I could put this boiler plate Customer into a property of the test class but then I would run the risk of it being modified. What are my options for simplifying this code? [TestMethod] public class CustomerTests : TestClassBase { [TestMethod] public void CanGetCustomerById() { // arrange var customer = new Customer() { CustId = 5, DifId = "55", CustLookupName = "The Dude", LoginList = new[] { new Login { LoginCustId = 5, LoginName = "tdude" } } }; var repository = Stub<ICustomerRepository>(); // act repository.Stub(rep => rep.GetById(5)).Return(customer); // assert Assert.AreEqual(customer, repository.GetById(5)); } [TestMethod] public void CanGetCustomerByDifId() { // arrange var customer = new Customer() { CustId = 5, DifId = "55", CustLookupName = "The Dude", LoginList = new[] { new Login { LoginCustId = 5, LoginName = "tdude" } } }; var repository = Stub<ICustomerRepository>(); // act repository.Stub(rep => rep.GetCustomerByDifID("55")).Return(customer); // assert Assert.AreEqual(customer, repository.GetCustomerByDifID("55")); } [TestMethod] public void CanGetCustomerByLogin() { // arrange var customer = new Customer() { CustId = 5, DifId = "55", CustLookupName = "The Dude", LoginList = new[] { new Login { LoginCustId = 5, LoginName = "tdude" } } }; var repository = Stub<ICustomerRepository>(); // act repository.Stub(rep => rep.GetCustomerByLogin("tdude")).Return(customer); // assert Assert.AreEqual(customer, repository.GetCustomerByLogin("tdude")); } } Test Base Class public class TestClassBase { protected T Stub<T>() where T : class { return MockRepository.GenerateStub<T>(); } } ICustomerRepository and IRepository public interface ICustomerRepository : IRepository<Customer> { IList<Customer> FindCustomers(string q); Customer GetCustomerByDifID(string difId); Customer GetCustomerByLogin(string loginName); } public interface IRepository<T> { void Save(T entity); void Save(List<T> entity); bool Save(T entity, out string message); void Delete(T entity); T GetById(int id); ICollection<T> FindAll(); }

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  • Why is this Exception?- The relationship between the two objects cannot be defined because they are

    - by dev-1787
    I m getting this Exception-"The relationship between the two objects cannot be defined because they are attached to different ObjectContext objects." I ve user table and country table. The countryid is referred in user table. I am getting the above Exception when I am trying to add entry in user table. This is my code- using (MyContext _db = new MyContext ()) { User user = User .CreateUser(0, Name, address, city, 0, 0, email, zip); Country country = _db.Country.Where("it.Id=@Id", new ObjectParameter("Id",countryId)).First(); user.Country = country; State state = _db.State.Where("it.Id=@Id", new ObjectParameter("Id", stateId)).First(); user.State = state; _db.AddToUser(user );//Here I am getting that Exception _db.SaveChanges(); }

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  • How to change Fluent NHibernate reference column name on a HasMany relationship using IHasManyConven

    - by snicker
    Currently I'm using Fluent NHibernate to generate my database schema, but I want the entities in a HasMany relationship to point to a different column for the reference. IE, this is what NHibernate will generate in the creation DDL: alter table `Pony` add index (Stable_ID), add constraint Ponies_Stable foreign key (Stable_Id) references `Stable` (Id); This is what I want to have: alter table `Pony` add index (Stable_ID), add constraint Ponies_Stable foreign key (Stable_Id) references `Stable` (EntityId); Where Stable.ID would be the primary key and Stable.EntityId is just another column that I set. I have a class already that looks like this: public class ForeignKeyReferenceConvention : IHasManyConvention { public void Apply(IOneToManyCollectionInstance instance) { instance.Cascade.All(); //What goes here so that I can change the reference column? } } What do I have to do to get the reference column to change?

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  • DataMapper and Codeigniter - how to fully manage a many-to-many relationship

    - by user252160
    I have the following relationship CType has many Field Field has many Ctype and of course the tables used are fields, ctypes, and ctypes_fields. Normally, the ctypes_fields table should contain only ids referencing the other two tables. However, i'd like to put there a "options" field that will contain some content for the concrete instance only. I walked through all DataMapper tuts but I could'n find relevant info on how I could extract these specific values (the ones in the relation table) Should I create a separate model for this relation table or there is a clever way to do this ?

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  • Database theory - relationship between two tables

    - by iansinke
    I have a database with two tables - let's call them Foo and Bar. Each foo may be related to any number of bars, and each bar may be related to any number of foos. I want to be able to retrieve, with one query, the foos that are associated with a certain bar, and the bars that are associated with a certain foo. My question is, what is the best way of recording these relationships? Should I have a separate table with records of each relationship (e.g. two columns, foo and bar)? Should the foo table have a column for a list of bars, and vice versa? Is there another option that I'm overlooking? I'm using SQL Server, if that makes a difference.

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  • JPQL check many-to-many relationship

    - by Juriy
    Just a quick question: There's the entity (for example User) who is connected with the ManyToMany relationship to the same entity (for example this relation describes "friendship" and it is symmetric). What is the fastest way in terms of execution time to check if User A is a "friend" of user B? The "dumb" way would be to fetch whole List and then check if user exists there but that's obviously the overhead. I'm using JPA 2 Here's the sample code: @Entity @Table(name="users") public class UserEntity { @ManyToMany(fetch = FetchType.LAZY) private List<UserEntity> friends; .... }

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  • Drupal Views Duplicate values being returned when using a relationship

    - by Linda
    I am having a problem with views. I have a view and am passing it a taxonomy term by name to it. I then have a relationship to a related node. For my output fields I am returning the related Title and related Body. I however have duplicates in my results. I have turned distinct to yes but believe this is working on the nodes being return and not the related node. Any ideas how I can remove the duplicates? Update Below is the query being run when I only get the title SELECT DISTINCT(node.nid) AS nid, node_node_data_field_wine_company.title AS node_node_data_field_wine_company_title, node_node_data_field_wine_company.nid AS node_node_data_field_wine_company_nid FROM node node LEFT JOIN content_type_wine node_data_field_wine_company ON node.vid = node_data_field_wine_company.vid INNER JOIN node node_node_data_field_wine_company ON node_data_field_wine_company.field_wine_company_nid = node_node_data_field_wine_company.nid LEFT JOIN term_node term_node ON node.vid = term_node.vid INNER JOIN term_data term_data ON term_node.tid = term_data.tid WHERE term_data.name = 'test' GROUP BY nid It looks like I should be grouping by node_node_data_field_wine_company_nid or selecting distinct values from there. Any ideas?

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  • VB FFT - stuck understanding relationship of results to frequency

    - by WaveyDavey
    Trying to understand an fft (Fast Fourier Transform) routine I'm using (stealing)(recycling) Input is an array of 512 data points which are a sample waveform. Test data is generated into this array. fft transforms this array into frequency domain. Trying to understand relationship between freq, period, sample rate and position in fft array. I'll illustrate with examples: ======================================== Sample rate is 1000 samples/s. Generate a set of samples at 10Hz. Input array has peak values at arr(28), arr(128), arr(228) ... period = 100 sample points peak value in fft array is at index 6 (excluding a huge value at 0) ======================================== Sample rate is 8000 samples/s Generate set of samples at 440Hz Input array peak values include arr(7), arr(25), arr(43), arr(61) ... period = 18 sample points peak value in fft array is at index 29 (excluding a huge value at 0) ======================================== How do I relate the index of the peak in the fft array to frequency ?

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  • Maintaining both sides of self-referential many-to-many relationship in Grails domain object

    - by Ali G
    I'm having some problems getting a many-to-many relationship working in grails. Is there anything obviously wrong with the following: class Person { static hasMany = [friends: Person] static mappedBy = [friends: 'friends'] String name List friends = [] String toString() { return this.name } } class BootStrap { def init = { servletContext -> Person bob = new Person(name: 'bob').save() Person jaq = new Person(name: 'jaq').save() jaq.friends << bob println "Bob's friends: ${bob.friends}" println "Jaq's friends: ${jaq.friends}" } } I'd expect Bob to be friends with Jaq and vice-versa, but I get the following output at startup: Running Grails application.. Bob's friends: [] Jaq's friends: [Bob] (I'm using Grails 1.2.0)

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  • With windows authentication, The trust relationship between the primary domain and the trusted domai

    - by yamspog
    I have my asp.net web server setup to use windows authentication. It is authenticating just fine with my current logged in user. I can verify this by viewing ... HttpContext.Current.User.Identity.Name And I can verify that I am authenticated by viewing... HttpContext.Current.User.Identity.IsAuthenticated However, when I call the .IsInRole function I get the trust relationship error... HttpContext.Current.User.IsInRole("accounting") I have found online references to problems with supplying domain name with the role name (domain\accounting), but I still get the same error. Any suggestions on where to look or troubleshoot the problem?

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  • Drupal Views Multiple values being returned when using a relationship

    - by Linda
    I am having a problem with views. I have a view and am passing it a taxonomy term by name to it. I then have a relationship to a related node. For my output fields I am returning the related Title and related Body. I however have duplicates in my results. I have turned distinct to yes but believe this is working on the nodes being return and not the related node. Any ideas how I can remove the duplicates?

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  • Combining a one-to-one relationship into one object in Fluent NHibernate

    - by Mike C.
    I have a one-to-one relationship in my database, and I'd like to just combine that into one object in Fluent NHibernate. The specific tables I am talking about are the aspnet_Users and aspnet_Membership tables from the default ASP.NET Membership implementation. I'd like to combine those into one simple User object and only get the fields I want. I would also like to make this read-only, as I want to use the built-in ASP.NET Membership API to modify. I simply want to take advantage of lazy-loading. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!

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  • Entity Relationship Diagramming

    - by Ben Aston
    I'd like to improve my understanding of cardinality constraints in ER diagrams. I have two entities: User Location But, I want the relationship between these two entities to be many-to-many (a user can be in many locations and a location can have many users). To do this I need to introduce an association class UserLocation. Is it correct to say I now have 3 entities? If I were to draw an ER diagam of the above, would I draw in the UserLocation entity, and would the cardinality look like this? User 1 ------ * User Location * ------ 1 Location

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  • Ordered many-to-many relationship in NHibernate

    - by Kristoffer
    Let's say I have two classes: Item and ItemCollection, where ItemCollection contains an ordered list of Item objects with an index, i.e. the list is ordered in a way specified by the user. Let's also say that they have a many-to-many relationship, an ItemCollection can contain many items and an Item can belong to several ItemCollections. That would, in my head, require three tables in the database. One for Item, one for ItemCollection and one for the ordered mapping. The mapping table would contain three columns: int ItemID int ItemCollectionID int ListIndex QUESTION: How would you design the ItemCollection class? Should the list of Item objects be a list, dictionary or other? What would the NHibernate mapping look like to get the ListIndex into the picture?

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  • What is Silverlight's relationship -- if any -- to WPF?

    - by xarzu
    I was working with a WPF application and I decided that the controls and graphics I wanted to display on the grid might look better if it was a silverlight component. I thought this way because of all the cool silverlight controls that look very flash-like. But now that I have gottem my Visual Studio 2010 set up with SIlverlight, it seems that every silverlight app I can make are ASP.NET in nature. It seems that instead of a cool GUI control to make, Silverlight is telling me that it is primarely a dataflow sort of application for the web. What is the relationship, if any, between WPF and Silverlight. Can I or can I not put a silverlight control into my existing WPF application?

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  • Relationship between .NET ClassLoader and Assembly

    - by smwikipedia
    I am wondering about the relationship between .NET ClassLoader and Assembly I use the "!dumpdomain xxxx" command and got the following output: Domain 1: 00522108 LowFrequencyHeap: 0052212c HighFrequencyHeap: 00522178 StubHeap: 005221c4 Stage: OPEN SecurityDescriptor: 00523430 Name: BoxUnbox.exe **Assembly**: 0056eb88 [C:\Windows\assembly\GAC_32\mscorlib\2.0.0.0__b77a5c561934e089\mscorlib.dll] **ClassLoader**: 0056ec08 SecurityDescriptor: 0056c078 Module Name 56d71000 C:\Windows\assembly\GAC_32\mscorlib\2.0.0.0__b77a5c561934e089\mscorlib.dll **Assembly**: 005794f0 [] **ClassLoader**: 00579570 SecurityDescriptor: 0057a018 Module Name 00152c5c I noticed that the "ClassLoader" and "Assembly" appear in pair. It seems each Assembly is accompanied with its own "ClassLoader". Why like this? Is this a litte noisy? Why not just assign one "ClassLoader" to a AppDomain and use it to load all the used Assembly into the AppDomain? Isnt't this design more elegant? Many thanks.

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  • Datamapper has n relationship with multiple keys

    - by jing
    I am working on a simple relationship with DataMapper, a ruby webapp to track games. A game belongs_to 4 players, and each player can have many games. When I call player.games.size, I seem to be getting back a result of 0, for players that I know have games associated with them. I am currently able to pull the player associations off of game, but can't figure out why player.games is empty. Do I need to define a parent_key on the has n association, or is there something else I'm missing? class Game belongs_to :t1_p1, :class_name => 'Player', :child_key => [:player1_id] belongs_to :t1_p2, :class_name => 'Player', :child_key => [:player2_id] belongs_to :t2_p1, :class_name => 'Player', :child_key => [:player3_id] belongs_to :t2_p2, :class_name => 'Player', :child_key => [:player4_id] ... end class Player has n, :games ... end

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