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• Is there a distributed project management software like Redmine?

  - by Tobias Kienzler

  I am quite familiar with and love using git, among other reasons due to its distributed nature. Now I'd like to set up some similarly distributed (FOSS) Project Management software with features similar to what Redmine offers, such as Issue & time tracking, milestones Gantt charts, calendar git integration, maybe some automatic linking of commits and issues Wiki (preferably with Mathjax support) Forum, news, notifications Multiple Projects However, I am looking for a solution that does not require a permanently accesible server, i.e. like in git, each user should have their own copy which can be easily synchronized with others. However it should be possible to not have a copy of every Project on every machine. Since trac uses multiple instances for multiple projects anyway, I was considering using that, but I neither know how well it adapts to simply giting the database itself (which would be be easiest way to handle the distribution due to git being used anyway), nor does it include all of Redmine's feature. So, can you recommend me a distributed project management software? If your suggestion is a software that usually runs on a server please include a description of the distribution method (e.g. whether simply putting the data in a git repository would do the trick), and if it's e.g. trac, please mention plugins required to include the features mentioned.

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• What is the greatest design flaw you have faced in any programming language?

  - by Anto

  All programming languages are having their design flaws simply because not a single language can be perfect, just as with most (all?) other things. That aside, which design fault in a programming language has annoyed you the most through your history as a programmer? Note that if a language is "bad" just because it isn't designed for a specific thing isn't a design flaw, but a feature of design, so don't list such annoyances of languages. If a language is illsuited for what it is designed for, that is of course a flaw in the design. Implementation specific things and under the hood things do not count either.

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• Automated build platform for .NET portfolio - best choice?

  - by jkohlhepp

  I am involved with maintaining a fairly large portfolio of .NET applications. Also in the portfolio are legacy applications built on top of other platforms - native C++, ECLIPS Forms, etc. I have a complex build framework on top of NAnt right now that manages the builds for all of these applications. The build framework uses NAnt to do a number of different things: Pull code out of Subversion, as well as create tags in Subversion Build the code, using MSBuild for .NET or other compilers for other platforms Peek inside AssemblyInfo files to increment version numbers Do deletes of certain files that shouldn't be included in builds / releases Releases code to deployment folders Zips code up for backup purposes Deploy Windows services; start and stop them Etc. Most of those things can be done with just NAnt by itself, but we did build a couple of extension tasks for NAnt to do some things that were specific to our environment. Also, most of those processes above are genericized and reused across a lot of our different application build scripts, so that we don't repeat logic. So it is not simple NAnt code, and not simple build scripts. There are dozens of NAnt files that come together to execute a build. Lately I've been dissatisfied with NAnt for a couple reasons: (1) it's syntax is just awful - programming languages on top of XML are really horrific to maintain, (2) the project seems to have died on the vine; there haven't been a ton of updates lately and it seems like no one is really at the helm. Trying to get it working with .NET 4 has cause some pain points due to this lack of activity. So, with all of that background out of the way, here's my question. Given some of the things that I want to accomplish based on that list above, and given that I am primarily in a .NET shop, but I also need to build non-.NET projects, is there an alternative to NAnt that I should consider switching to? Things on my radar include Powershell (with or without psake), MSBuild by itself, and rake. These all have pros and cons. For example, is MSBuild powerful enough? I remember using it years ago and it didn't seem to have as much power as NAnt. Do I really want to have my team learn Ruby just to do builds using rake? Is psake really mature enough of a project to pin my portfolio to? Is Powershell "too close to the metal" and I'll end up having to write my own build library akin to psake to use it on its own? Are there other tools that I should consider? If you were involved with maintaining a .NET portfolio of significant complexity, what build tool would you be looking at? What does your team currently use?

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• Donald Ferguson says end-user programming is next big thing. Is it?

  - by Joris Meys

  You can guess how I came to ask this question... Anyway : http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11944966 Donald Ferguson claiming that his websphere was his biggest disaster and proclaiming that end-user programming will be the way forward. This genuinely spurs the question : what with current programming languages. Honestly, I don't think that end-user programming will go much beyond a rather rigid template where you can build some apps around. If you see how many people actually manage to understand the basic functionality of functions in EXCEL... Plus, I fail to see how complex and performant systems can be built in such an end-user programming language ( Visual Basic, anyone?) Nice to play around with, but for many applications they're just not the thing. So no worries for the old languages if you ask me. What's your ideas?

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• Continuous Integration using Docker

  - by Leon Mergen

  One of the main advantages of Docker is the isolated environment it brings, and I want to leverage that advantage in my continuous integration workflow. A "normal" CI workflow goes something like this: Poll repository for changes Pull from repository Install dependencies Run tests In a Dockerized workflow, it would be something like this: Poll repository for changes Pull from repository Build docker image Run docker image as container Run tests Kill docker container My problem is with the "run tests" step: since Docker is an isolated environment, intuitively I would like to treat it as one; this means the preferred method of communication are sockets. However, this only works well in certain situations (a webapp, for example). When testing different kind of services (for example, a background service that only communicated with a database), a different approach would be required. What is the best way to approach this problem? Is it a problem with my application's design, and should I design it in a more TDD, service-oriented way that always listens on some socket? Or should I just give up on isolation, and do something like this: Poll repository for changes Pull from repository Build docker image Run docker image as container Open SSH session into container Run tests Kill docker container SSH'ing into the container seems like an ugly solution to me, since it requires deep knowledge of the contents of the container, and thus break the isolation. I would love to hear SO's different approaches to this problem.

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• Integrating different branches from external sources into a single Mercurial repository

  - by dukeofgaming

  I'm currently working in a company using Perforce and am making way for distributed version control with Mercurial. I've had success importing Perforce history using the perfarce (quite a suitable name, I laugh every time I see/say it) however, this only works with a single branch at a time. Here's how my P4 integration setup works: In perforce, create a "client", which is kind of a description of what you will be constantly updating/checking-out. This can only address one branch at a time (trunk or other). Once you do this, run hg clone p4://<server>/<client_name> Go to .hg/hgrc and put the perforce path line: perforce = p4://<server>/<client_name> Work normally with the code under mercurial, do hg pull perforce to sync up, hg push to export a changelist What I'd like to be able to do is have a perforce path per branch and have everything work in the same repository. Now, pushing is not a problem, however, if I pull the history from another branch it would end up at the default branch. I'd like to be able to do something like hg pull perforce-R5 and have it land in mercurial's R5 branch. Even if I have no merging history, it would be sweet enough to be able to preserve it. There are also other plugins for CVCSs that let you integrate mercurial, but AFAIK the subversion one has the same problem. I don't think there is a straight-through way of doing this, but as long as I could automate the process with some hooks and scripts in a single Mercurial machine, that would be good enough.

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• Developing JSON API for a Carpool Engine

  - by Siddharth

  I am developing a new set of API methods for carpooling/cab booking, so if a developer needs to develop an app or webportal for carpooling, he can call my JSON API. Basically making it easy for developers. My API current has: AddVehicle AddJourney SearchJourney SubscribeToThisJourney(journey) SubscriberList(journey) to get list of people who have subscribed for this journey AcceptSubscription(subscriber) AcceptedSubcriberList SubscriberList to get list of providers I have subscribed to I need help with replacing subscriber with something else. It's difficult to remember, and confusing when you see 3 methods that mean very different things: SubscriberList, SubscribedToThisJourneyList and AcceptedSubscriberList. Confusing to remember. One is a list of who I have subscribed to Who has subscribed to me Whose subscription I have accepted How can I name these methods to make them easier to understand and remember?

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• Is donationware a good monetization model for developers?

  - by Nathan Campos

  I've been developing for Android for about 2 years (and ~1 year for iOS), releasing freeware and open source applications (mostly because my AdSense account was disabled in 2010), but recently I had an idea for a great app that I wanted to get some money, since it would take some effort to develop and also I would like to test this "commercial" model to know if this could make me invest more time improving and making my apps better. Since my AdSense account was disabled and then I'll not be about to sell it on the Google Play Store, I thought about making it a donationware so I would distribute it for free (and probably open source too) and users that really liked the app and wanted to give me a thanks and a incentive to continue developing it could donate any amount of money. So, what's your experience with donationware? Is it worth compared to paid apps?

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• Geographically limited / gradual release process

  - by daniel.sedlacek

  I am looking for more information on a gradual release process - that is when you release new version of a software only to certain set of end users, mostly geographically limited (or limited by a reach of particular server). Google seems to be blind to this term - that indicates that's not how it's called. What's the name then? EDIT: An example of what I mean is when Facebook rolled out new image galleries they were first visible to certain users only, then to whole US and then to the rest of the world.

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• How would you know if you've written readable and easily maintainable code?

  - by KyelJmD

  How would one know if the code he has created is easily maintainable and readable? Of course in your point of view (the one who actually wrote the code) your code is readable and maintainable, but we should be true to ourselves here. How would we know if we've written pretty messy and unmaintainable code? Are there any constructs or guidelines to know if we have developed a messy piece of software?

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• TDD - what are the short term gains/benefits?

  - by ratkok

  Quite often benefits of using TDD are considered as 'long term' gains - the overall code will be better structured, more testable, overall less bugs reported by customers, etc. However, where are the short terms benefits of using TDD? Are there any which are actually tengible and easily measureable? Is it important to have an obvious (or even not obvious by quantifiable) short term benefit at all, if the long term gains are measurable?

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• Ruby on Rails resources

  - by andrewpthorp

  I was hoping I could find some good ruby on rails reading/resources. Please note, I currently am aware of the following: Pragmatic Bookshelf (Exceptional Ruby, Agile web development with rails, etc) Addison Wesley (Rails AntiPatterns, The Rails 3 Way, etc) freenode #rubyonrails RSS Feeds (thoughtbot, pivotal blabs) railscasts I am looking for any other good resources. What are the best RSS feeds? What are the best books? Blogs? Videos? Any information you can share would be great!

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• Code Generation and IDE vs writing per Hand

  - by sytycs

  I have been programming for about a year now. Pretty soon I realized that I need a great Tool for writing code and learned Vim. I was happy with C and Ruby and never liked the idea of an IDE. Which was encouraged by a lot of reading about programming.[1] However I started with (my first) Java Project. In a CS Course we were using Visual Paradigm and encouraged to let the program generate our code from a class diagram. I did not like that Idea because: Our class diagram was buggy. Students more experienced in Java said they would write the code per hand. I had never written any Java before and would not understand a lot of the generated code. So I took a different approach and wrote all methods per Hand (getter and Setter included). My Team-members have written their parts (partly generated by VP) in an IDE and I was "forced" to use it too. I realized they had generated equal amounts of code in a shorter amount of time and did not spend a lot of time setting their CLASSPATH and writing scripts for compiling that son of a b***. Additionally we had to implement a GUI and I dont see how we could have done that in a sane matter in Vim. So here is my Problem: I fell in love with Vim and the Unix way. But it looks like for getting this job done (on time) the IDE/Code generation approach is superior. Do you have equal experiences? Is Java by the nature of the language just more suitable for an IDE/Code generated approach? Or am I lacking the knowledge to produce equal amounts of code "per Hand"? [1] http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/~matloff/eclipse.html

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• Increase application performance

  - by Prayos

  I'm writing a program for a company that will generate a daily report for them. All of the data that they use for this report is stored in a local SQLite database. For this report, the utilize pretty much every bit of the information in the database. So currently, when I query the datbase, I retrieve everything, and store the information in lists. Here's what I've got: using (var dataReader = _connection.Select(query)) { if (dataReader.HasRows) { while (dataReader.Read()) { _date.Add(Convert.ToDateTime(dataReader["date"])); _measured.Add(Convert.ToDouble(dataReader["measured_dist"])); _bit.Add(Convert.ToDouble(dataReader["bit_loc"])); _psi.Add(Convert.ToDouble(dataReader["pump_press"])); _time.Add(Convert.ToDateTime(dataReader["timestamp"])); _fob.Add(Convert.ToDouble(dataReader["force_on_bit"])); _torque.Add(Convert.ToDouble(dataReader["torque"])); _rpm.Add(Convert.ToDouble(dataReader["rpm"])); _pumpOneSpm.Add(Convert.ToDouble(dataReader["pump_1_strokes_pm"])); _pumpTwoSpm.Add(Convert.ToDouble(dataReader["pump_2_strokes_pm"])); _pullForce.Add(Convert.ToDouble(dataReader["pull_force"])); _gpm.Add(Convert.ToDouble(dataReader["flow"])); } } } I then utilize these lists for the calculations. Obviously, the more information that is in this database, the longer the initial query will take. I'm curious if there is a way to increase the performance of the query at all? Thanks for any and all help. EDIT One of the report rows is called Daily Drilling Hours. For this calculation, I use this method: // Retrieves the timestamps where measured depth == bit depth and PSI >= 50 public double CalculateDailyProjectDrillingHours(DateTime date) { var dailyTimeStamps = _time.Where((t, i) => _date[i].Equals(date) && _measured[i].Equals(_bit[i]) && _psi[i] >= 50).ToList(); return _dailyDrillingHours = Convert.ToDouble(Math.Round(TimeCalculations(dailyTimeStamps).TotalHours, 2, MidpointRounding.AwayFromZero)); } // Checks that the interval is less than 10, then adds the interval to the total time private static TimeSpan TimeCalculations(IList<DateTime> timeStamps) { var interval = new TimeSpan(0, 0, 10); var totalTime = new TimeSpan(); TimeSpan timeDifference; for (var j = 0; j < timeStamps.Count - 1; j++) { if (timeStamps[j + 1].Subtract(timeStamps[j]) <= interval) { timeDifference = timeStamps[j + 1].Subtract(timeStamps[j]); totalTime = totalTime.Add(timeDifference); } } return totalTime; }

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• Bayes Misclassification error and plot : pattern recognition [closed]

  - by user1214586

  Below is a Matlab code for Bayes classifier which classifies arbitrary numbers into their classes. training = [3;5;17;19;24;27;31;38;45;48;52;56;66;69;73;78;84;88]; target_class = [0;0;10;10;20;20;30;30;40;40;50;50;60;60;70;70;80;80]; test = [1:2:90]'; class = classify(test,training, target_class, 'diaglinear'); % Naive Bayes classifier [test class] If someone could provide code snippets for calculating the Bayes error for misclassification and accuracy.Also, is it possible to plot a scatter plot and histogram indicating the number of data points belonging to different classes? Thank you.

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• WCF and Service Registry

  - by TK Lee

  I am about to build some WCF Services. Those services need to communicate to each others too, in some scenarios. I've done some "Google-ing" about Service Registry but can't figure out how to implement service registry with WCF; is there any other alternate? Is there any Microsoft technology available for Service Registry? I'm new to SOA and I will really appreciate any help or guidance (what and where should I exactly look for registry services).

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• Should I use C style in C++?

  - by c.hughes

  As I've been developing my position on how software should be developed at the company I work for, I've come to a certain conclusion that I'm not entirely sure of. It seems to me that if you are programming in C++, you should not use C style anything if it can be helped and you don't absolutely need the performance improvement. This way people are kept from doing things like pointer arithmetic or creating resources with new without any RAII, etc. If this idea was enforced, seeing a char* would possibly be a thing of the past. I'm wondering if this is a conclusion others have made? Or am I being too puritanical about this?

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• Can resizing images with css be good?

  - by Echo

  After reading Is CSS resizing of images still a bad idea?, I thought of a similar question. (too similar? should this be closed?) Lets say you need to use 10 different product image sizes throughout your website and you have 20k-30k different product images, should you use 10 different files for each image size? or maybe 5 different files and use css to resize the other 5? Would there ever be combination that would be good? Or should you always make separate image files? If you use css to resize them, you will save on storage (in GBs) but you will have slight increase in bandwidth and slower loading images(but if images are cached, and you show both sizes of the image would you use less bandwidth and have faster loads?) (But of course you wouldn't want to use css to resize images for mobile sites.)

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• ASP.NET MVC3 checkbox dropdownlist create [migrated]

  - by user95381

  i'm new in asp.net MVC and I/m use view model to poppulate the dropdown list and group of checkboxes. I use SQL Server 2012, where have many to many relationships between Students - Books; Student - Cities. I need collect StudentName, one city and many books for one student. I have next questions: 1. How can I get the values from database to my StudentBookCityViewModel? 2. How can I save the values to my database in [HttpPost] Create method? Here is the code: MODEL public class Student { public int StudentId { get; set; } public string StudentName { get; set; } public ICollection<Book> Books { get; set; } public ICollection<City> Cities { get; set; } } public class Book { public int BookId { get; set; } public string BookName { get; set; } public bool IsSelected { get; set; } public ICollection<Student> Students { get; set; } } public class City { public int CityId { get; set; } public string CityName { get; set; } public bool IsSelected { get; set; } public ICollection<Student> Students { get; set; } } VIEW MODEL public class StudentBookCityViewModel { public string StudentName { get; set; } public IList<Book> Books { get; set; } public StudentBookCityViewModel() { Books = new[] { new Book {BookName = "Title1", IsSelected = false}, new Book {BookName = "Title2", IsSelected = false}, new Book {BookName = "Title3", IsSelected = false} }.ToList(); } public string City { get; set; } public IEnumerable<SelectListItem> CityValues { get { return new[] { new SelectListItem {Value = "Value1", Text = "Text1"}, new SelectListItem {Value = "Value2", Text = "Text2"}, new SelectListItem {Value = "Value3", Text = "Text3"} }; } } } Context public class EFDbContext : DbContext{ public EFDbContext(string connectionString) { Database.Connection.ConnectionString = connectionString; } public DbSet<Book> Books { get; set; } public DbSet<Student> Students { get; set; } public DbSet<City> Cities { get; set; } protected override void OnModelCreating(DbModelBuilder modelBuilder) { modelBuilder.Entity<Book>() .HasMany(x => x.Students).WithMany(x => x.Books) .Map(x => x.MapLeftKey("BookId").MapRightKey("StudentId").ToTable("StudentBooks")); modelBuilder.Entity<City>() .HasMany(x => x.Students).WithMany(x => x.Cities) .Map(x => x.MapLeftKey("CityId").MapRightKey("StudentId").ToTable("StudentCities")); } } Controller public ActionResult Create() { return View(); } [HttpPost] public ActionResult Create() { //I don't understand how I can save values to db context.SaveChanges(); return RedirectToAction("Index"); } View @model UsingEFNew.ViewModels.StudentBookCityViewModel @using (Html.BeginForm()) { Your Name: @Html.TextBoxFor(model = model.StudentName) <div>Genre:</div> <div> @Html.DropDownListFor(model => model.City, Model.CityValues) </div> <div>Books:</div> <div> @for (int i = 0; i < Model.Books.Count; i++) { <div> @Html.HiddenFor(x => x.Books[i].BookId) @Html.CheckBoxFor(x => x.Books[i].IsSelected) @Html.LabelFor(x => x.Books[i].IsSelected, Model.Books[i].BookName) </div> } </div> <div> <input id="btnSubmit" type="submit" value="Submit" /> </div> </div> }

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• Good abbreviations for XML ... things

  - by Peter Turner

  I've never been very good at maintaining a coherent bunch of variable names for interfacing with XML files because I never name the variables in my interfaces the same way across my source. There are Elements, Attributes, Documents, NodeLists, Nodes, DocumentFragments and other stuff. What's a good scheme for keeping track of this stuff as variables? Is there a standard in regard to Hungarian notation? Do you even put anything signifying that the data is actually XML, is this bad practice?

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• Reasons to Use a VM For Development

  - by George Stocker

  Background: I work at a start-up company, where one team uses Virtual Machines to connect to a remote server to do their development, and another team (the team I'm on) uses local IIS/SQL Server 2005/Visual Studio installations to conduct work. Team VM is located about 1000 miles from Team Non-VM, and the servers the VMs run off of are located near Team VM (Latency, for those that are wondering, is about 50ms). A person high in the company is pushing for Team Non-VM to use virtual machines for programming, development, and testing. The latter point we agree on -- we want Virtual Machines to test configurations and various aspects of the web application in a 'clean' state. The Problem: What we don't agree on is having developers using RDP to connect to a desktop remotely that contains Visual Studio, SQL Server, and IIS to do the same development we could do locally on our laptops. I've tried the VM set-up, and besides the color issue, there is a latency issue that is rather noticeable, not to mention that since we're a start-up, a good number of employees work from home on occasion with our work laptops, and this move would cut off the laptops. They'd be turned in. Reasons to Use Remote VMs for Development (Not Testing!): Here are the stated reasons that this person wants us to use VMs: They work for TeamVM. They keep the source code "safe". If we want to work from home, we could just use our home PCs. Licenses (I don't know what the argument is, only that it's been used). Reasons not to use Remote VMs for Development: Here are the stated reasons why we don't want to use VMs: We like working from home. We get a lot done on our own time. We're not going to use our Home PCs to do work related stuff. The Latency is noticeable. Support for the VMs (if they go down, or if we need a new VM) takes a while. We don't have administrative privileges on the VM, and are unable to change settings as needed. What I'm looking for from the community is this: What reasons would you give for not using VMs for development? Keep in mind these are remote VMs -- this isn't a VM running on a local desktop. It's using the laptop (or a desktop) as a thin client for a remote VM. Also, on the other side of the coin: Is there something we're missing that makes VMs more palatable for development? Edit: I think 'safe' is used in term of corporate espionage, or more correctly if the Laptop gets stolen, the person who stole would have access to our source code. The former (as we've pointed out, is always going to be a possibility -- companies stop that with litigation, there isn't a technical solution (so far as I can see)). The latter point is ( though I don't know its usefulness in a corporate scenario) mitigated by Truecrypt'ing the entire volume.

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• Collaboration using github and testing the code

  - by wyred

  The procedure in my team is that we all commit our code to the same development branch. We have a test server that runs updated code from this branch so that we can test our code on the servers. The problem is that if we want to merge the development branch to the master branch in order to publish new features to our production servers, some features that may not have been ready will be applied to the production servers. So we're considering having each developer work on a feature/topic branch where each of them work on their own features and when it's ready, merge it into the development branch for testing, and then into the master branch. However, because our test server only pulls changes from the development branch, the developers are unable to test their features. While this is not a huge issue as they can test it on their local machine, the only problem I foresee is if we want to test callbacks from third-party services like sendgrid (where you specify a url for sendgrid to update you on the status of emails sent out). How to handle this problem? Note: We're not advanced git users. We use the Github app for MacOSX and Windows to commit our work.

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• How can Swift be so much faster than Objective-C?

  - by Yellow

  Apple launched its new programming language Swift today. In the presentation, they made some performance comparisons between Objective-C and Python. The following is a picture of one of their slides, of a comparison of those three languages performing some complex object sort: There was an even more incredible graph about a performance comparison working on some encryption algorithm. Obviously this is a marketing talk, and they didn't go into detail on how this was implemented in each. I leaves me wondering though: how can a new programming language be so much faster? In this example, surely you just have a bad Objective-C compiler or you're doing something in a less efficient way? How else would you explain a 40% performance increase? I understand that garbage collection/automated reference control might produce some additional overhead, but this much?

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• Is there a Javascript library for creating vintage photos?

  - by Nguyen Thanh Tu

  I'm working on a Canvas object in HTML5, and I am attempting to make some photos look "better". I tried VintageJS, an existing photo-retouching Javascript library, and Picozu, a web application cloning some Adobe Photoshop functionalities, but I'm still not happy. Can you help me with an algorithm or point to an existing Javascript library that would allow me to make my photos look like the following example? http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f137/thanhtu_zx/Untitled-1.jpg

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• Questioning pythonic type checking

  - by Pace

  I've seen countless times the following approach suggested for "taking in a collection of objects and doing X if X is a Y and ignoring the object otherwise" def quackAllDucks(ducks): for duck in ducks: try: duck.quack("QUACK") except AttributeError: #Not a duck, can't quack, don't worry about it pass The alternative implementation below always gets flak for the performance hit caused by type checking def quackAllDucks(ducks): for duck in ducks: if hasattr(duck,"quack"): duck.quack("QUACK") However, it seems to me that in 99% of scenarios you would want to use the second solution because of the following: If the user gets the parameters wrong then they will not be treated like a duck and there will be no indication. A lot of time will be wasted debugging why there is no quacking going on until the user finally realizes his silly mistake. The second solution would throw a stack trace as soon the user tried to quack. If the user has any bugs in their quack() method which cause an AttributeError then those bugs will be silently swallowed. Once again time will be wasted digging for the bug when the second solution would simply give a stack trace showing the immediate issue. In fact, it seems to me that the only time you would ever want to use the first method is when: The block of code in question is in an extremely performance critical section of your application. Following the principal of "avoid premature optimization" you would only realize this of course, after you had implemented the safer approach and found it to be a bottleneck. There are many types of quacking objects out there and you are only interested in quacking objects that quack with a very specific set of arguments (this seems to be a very rare case to me). Given this, why is it that so many people prefer the first approach over the second approach? What is it that I am missing? Also, I realize there are other solutions (such as using abcs) but these are the two solutions I seem to see most often for the basic case.

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