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• Updating a staging server (from a CI server) in a Vagrant box with Chef

  - by Tomas Brambora

  I'm using Vagrant + Chef (chef_client provisioner) to create & provision a staging environment for my server. And I have a Jenkins job set up that is run every time I push to my 'develop' branch. In the Jenkins job, I would like to update & rebuild the source code of the server in the staging box and restart it. I have already written the cookbooks that install the dependencies, configure the db etc. But I'm not sure how to run only the update & rebuild & restart stuff from the cookbooks. I understand I could always tear down the whole box and rebuild it, but provisioning the box is a lengthy process so I would like to do that as little as possible. I split my server cookbook into 3 recipes: dependencies, db_setup and server. What I want to run in the my Jenkins job is the "server" recipe only. But I dont' understand how can I do that... If I specify the run_list on my Chef server, then I lose the ability to provision the whole box from scratch. Basically, I would like to be able to tell Vagrant from the command line what recipes Chef should run. Is that possible somehow? Cheers!

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• Rails emails not sending in staging environment

  - by jrdioko

  In a Rails application I set up a new staging environment with the following parameters in its environments/ file: config.action_mailer.perform_deliveries = true config.action_mailer.raise_delivery_errors = true config.action_mailer.delivery_method = :smtp However, when the system generates an email, it gets printed to the staging.log file instead of being sent. My SMTP settings work fine in other environments. What configuration am I missing to get the emails to actually send? Edit: Yes, the staging box is set up with valid configuration for an SMTP server it has access to. It seems like the problem isn't with the SMTP settings (if it was, wouldn't I get errors in the logs?), but with the Rails configuration. The application is still redirecting emails to the log file (saying "Sent mail: ...") as opposed to actually going through SMTP. Edit #2: It looks like the emails actually have been sending correctly, they just happen to print to the log as well. I'm trying to use the sanitize_email gem to redirect the mail to another address, and that doesn't seem to be working, which is why I thought the emails weren't going out. So I think that solves my problem, although I'm still curious what in ActionMailer's settings controls whether emails are sent, logged to the log file, or both. Edit #3: The problem with sanitize_email boiled down to me needing to add the new staging environment to ActionMailer::Base.local_environments. I'll keep this question open to see if anyone can answer my last question (what determines whether ActionMailer's emails get sent out, logged to the log file, or both?)

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• Hudson + gitolite + virtual host on staging server

  - by takeshin

  I have a Ubuntu server which I want to be my continous integration server (for the Zend Application based projects) and the staging server as well. The team is pushing source files to the repository: /home/git/repositories/testing.git Then Hudson does the build, and the master branch is exported (maybe cloned is a better word) by git hudson plugin to: /var/lib/hudson/jobs/test/workspace/ The workspace contains .git folder as well, which is not necessary on my staging website. How do you set up virtual host to see the staging version of the content of the repository? Does the virtual host point to the workspace, or shall I export the files to another directory? What about the permissions and security? Hudson is the owner of all the workspace files. Do I have to do some post-build actions to set up access? P.S. If this question is more apropriate to serverfault, please migrate.

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• How would you manage development between many Staging branches?

  - by Trip

  We have a Staging Branch. then we came out with a Beta branch for users to move whenever they wanted to from old Production branch to the new features. Our plan seemed simple, we test on Staging, when items get QA'd, they get cherry-picked and deploy to Beta. Here's the problem! A bug will discreetly make its way on to Beta, and since Beta is a production environment, it needs fixes fast and accurate. But not all the QA's got done. Enter Git hell.. So I find a problem on Beta. No sweat, its already been fixed on Staging, but when I go to cherry-pick the item over, Beta barely has any of the other pre-requisites of code to implement this small change. Now Beta has a little here and a little there, and I can't imagine it as a code base being as stable as Staging. What's more, is I'm dealing with some insane Git conflicts, and having to monkey patch a bunch of things to make up for what Beta hasn't caught up with Staging. Can someone polite or non-polite terms, tell me what we're doing wrong here as far as assembling this project? Any awesome recommendations or workarounds or alternatives to the system we came up with?

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• Coldfusion Report Builder - How can you set different datasources externally between prod/staging/de

  - by Smooth Operator

  Coldfusion Report Builder is great. One small issue. We use ANT+CFANT to deploy. When we create the report, say in a datasource called MyApp_dev on a dev box. Everything works great when the report is created. We deploy the report to our staging server, which has a datasource of MyApp_Staging. That server also, may or may not, have the live app working under MyApp_Live. Ant pushes the update to Staging just great. Run the report, crashes and burns. Why? It seems the report is looking for the MyApp_Dev data_source, even though the application is using the MyApp_Staging datasource. In digging around I found a few approaches, I would like to do this one, final, ideal way from the beginning instead of having to go back to do dozens of reports differently when I have a new Aha! moment. 1) Obvious: Pass in the datasource in to the cfreport tag. Doesn't work for ColdFusion Builder Reports as of v8, or v9 as tested on Linux. 2) Most realistic option (but painful) so far: Pass in the query as an object into the ColdFusion Builder report. Let's think about this: Create the Report with the report builder to my heart's content using the RDS, etc on my local box. When I'm done, copy the query into a snippet of code, or into a database column to be dynamically be injected at runtime with correct datasource. Modify my "run report" event to find the query from the database column, insert it into another dynamic cfquery and potentially... evaluate (!?!) it? Fun side is I can set the cfquery datasource to what I would need for each environment. When I modify the report's columns in CF Report Builder, I always have to update the query in the database. Is there a snippet of code that can extract this for me? Hmm. 3) Less than ideal. Suck it up and let all the reports in staging run off the live server. Maybe copy the live data into staging (sans structural changes) to let it seem similar. Are there any eloquent ways to accomplish the above? Thanks in Advance!

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• Firefox will not remember local site cookie

  - by Campo

  This is a weird one. We have a production server (Server 2008) and two staging servers (Server 2008 and Server 2003) I have sites on all of these. They all use cookies. On the Production server when browsing to our site www.supernovainteractive.com there is a cookie that detects when you visted the site and it will not refresh the logo animation (top left hand side) on clicking to another page. This works for all browsers on the production server. I’m not sure what’s going on but for some reason cookies are not working on one site in the 2008 staging server only. This is when browsing using Firefox (3.6.3) they work fine on all other browsers (IE, Chrome, Safari, Opera) In addition, the 2003 staging server works fine. You can test on the Supernova Interactive site by noticing the logo in the top left corner. It uses a cookie to detect if you’ve already seen the animation. Once you’ve seen it once, it doesn’t animate again until tomorrow. Currently, it’s animating every time. I have opened an outside facing port so others can see the issue. Http://exchange.supernova.com:10009 Any ideas on this one? Firewalls are off on the server. Notice you do not get a cookie from Exchange.supernova.com.

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• Firefox Does NOT get local site cookie

  - by Campo

  This is a weird one. We have a production server (Server 2008) and two staging servers (Server 2008 and Server 2003) I have sites on all of these. They all use cookies. On the Production server when browsing to our site www.supernovainteractive.com there is a cookie that detects when you visted the site and it will not refresh the logo animation (top left hand side) on clicking to another page. This works for all browsers on the production server. I’m not sure what’s going on but for some reason cookies are not working on one site in the 2008 staging server only. This is when browsing using Firefox (3.6.3) they work fine on all other browsers (IE, Chrome, Safari, Opera) In addition, the 2003 staging server works fine. You can test on the Supernova Interactive site by noticing the logo in the top left corner. It uses a cookie to detect if you’ve already seen the animation. Once you’ve seen it once, it doesn’t animate again until tomorrow. Currently, it’s animating every time. I have opened an outside facing port so others can see the issue. Http://exchange.supernova.com:10009 Any ideas on this one? Firewalls are off on the server. Notice you do not get a cookie from Exchange.supernova.com.

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• WF 4.0 can't get to resume workflow on the staging/production environment

  - by Yasmine Atta Hajjaj

  I have developed various registeration workflows using WF4.0. Each work flow has various bookmarks. I am using the registeration wf for an asp.net application. I tested the asp.net application locally and it is working fine( Starting WF, Persisting to db and resuming bookmarks). When I try to test it on the staging server, everything goes messy. I can no longer resume wfs and I get an error message : System.Runtime.DurableInstancing.InstancePersistenceCommandException was unhandled by user code Message=The execution of the InstancePersistenceCommand named {urn:schemas-microsoft-com:System.Activities.Persistence/command}LoadWorkflow was interrupted by an error. Source=System.Runtime.DurableInstancing StackTrace: at System.Runtime.AsyncResult.End[TAsyncResult](IAsyncResult result) at System.Runtime.DurableInstancing.InstancePersistenceContext.OuterExecute(InstanceHandle initialInstanceHandle, InstancePersistenceCommand command, Transaction transaction, TimeSpan timeout) at System.Runtime.DurableInstancing.InstanceStore.Execute(InstanceHandle handle, InstancePersistenceCommand command, TimeSpan timeout) at System.Activities.WorkflowApplication.PersistenceManager.Load(TimeSpan timeout) at System.Activities.WorkflowApplication.LoadCore(TimeSpan timeout, Boolean loadAny) at System.Activities.WorkflowApplication.Load(Guid instanceId, TimeSpan timeout) at System.Activities.WorkflowApplication.Load(Guid instanceId) at CEO_StartUpCEORegisterationTest.LoadInstance(Guid wfInstanceId) in c:\Users\Kunoichi\Documents\Visual Studio 2010\Projects\CMERegistrationSystem\RegistrationPortal\CEO\StartUpCEORegisterationTest.aspx.cs:line 64 at CEO_StartUpCEORegisterationTest.Page_Load(Object sender, EventArgs e) in c:\Users\Kunoichi\Documents\Visual Studio 2010\Projects\CMERegistrationSystem\RegistrationPortal\CEO\StartUpCEORegisterationTest.aspx.cs:line 44 at System.Web.Util.CalliHelper.EventArgFunctionCaller(IntPtr fp, Object o, Object t, EventArgs e) at System.Web.Util.CalliEventHandlerDelegateProxy.Callback(Object sender, EventArgs e) at System.Web.UI.Control.OnLoad(EventArgs e) at System.Web.UI.Control.LoadRecursive() at System.Web.UI.Page.ProcessRequestMain(Boolean includeStagesBeforeAsyncPoint, Boolean includeStagesAfterAsyncPoint) InnerException: System.Data.SqlClient.SqlException Message=Index 'NCIX_KeysTable_SurrogateInstanceId' on table 'KeysTable' (specified in the FROM clause) does not exist. Source=.Net SqlClient Data Provider ErrorCode=-2146232060 Class=16 LineNumber=211 Number=308 Procedure=LoadInstance Server= State=1 StackTrace: at System.Runtime.AsyncResult.End[TAsyncResult](IAsyncResult result) at System.Activities.DurableInstancing.SqlWorkflowInstanceStoreAsyncResult.SqlCommandAsyncResultCallback(IAsyncResult result) I know that this is quite verbose. But I have been banging my head against the wall for more than a week. I did search and all I came to know was to work on ms dtc. I enabled it on the staging server , I installed application server on the staging server and I am still getting the same error. I would appreciate if anyone could help with the problem. Thanks in advance :)

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• Correct way to set up office network - 8 workstations, a file server and a staging server

  - by naunu

  Our office had this old school windows 2003 domain setup, our server caught fire, and now we are looking to do it right from scratch. Here is what we need: 5 PC and 3 Mac workstations for web development, they will each have WAMP/MAMP setup on them, managed by their developers. We will have a file server for assets, and a LAMP server with an external IP for staging. Here is what we have to work with: 5 IP addresses, brand new PC file server with windows 2008 SE, D-Link DSS-16+ 16 port switch, belkin 5 port wireless router, cable modem with 4 ports. How I have it set up now (this is a temporary makeshift setup): Cable modem = LAMP server, wireless router Wireless router = Switch = All of the workstations and file server (setup as a workgroup). We have noticed our internet is very slow with us all plugged in to the switch, and the switch plugged in to the router. I am not positive, but I think it is because our router does not have NAT. We are also having problems with the MACs connection to the network drive - it keeps disconnecting. I want this done right, and we have a ~$600 budget to buy anything else we need. Does anybody have any advice for me? Should I set up a domain or workgroup?

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• Setup staging with multiple SVN

  - by Kapil Sharma

  We are a startup, setting new environments for product to be released soon. Planned server structure with planned release flow is as shown in below image It ideally have a local server (or Staging server, shown in green) in local office, without public IP address and Production Server (Red) at Amazon EC2. Both local and production server have there own SVN copy. Management here want to update production server with production SVN and without providing its access to developers (including freelancers/contract employees). So for developers, there is a Local SVN on local server. Another purpose of local SVN to keep a copy of code on local server, which is under our direct control. Although there are some technical concerns like how will code at local server will be updated from local SVN and commit on production SVN but bigger question is, is that structure correct? Major requirement remain don't provide production SVN access to developers. What are other possible options to achieve that? Another minor question, if suitable here, if above structure is correct, is it possible for a SVN checkout to get updated from one SVN (Local SVN) but commit to other (Production SVN)? If yes, How? edit An answer has been accepted but for bounty, I'm still looking for answer Is that structure correct? Its pros/Cons? Technical solution is already provided by accepted answer.

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• msxml domdocument stops working when I move to staging server

  - by blockhead

  I have some code that looks like this: Set xmlHttp = Server.CreateObject("MSXML2.ServerXMLHTTP") xmlHttp.Open "Get", myRSSfile, false xmlHttp.Send() myXML = xmlHttp.ResponseText Set xmlResponse = Server.CreateObject("MSXML2.DomDocument") xmlResponse.async = false xmlResponse.LoadXml(myXML) Set xmlHttp = Nothing Set objLst = xmlResponse.getElementsByTagName("item") Set xmlResponse = Nothing NoOfHeadlines = objLst.length - 1 Response.Write NoOfHeadlines This worked find on my development server. When I moved it over to a staging server (which I have no control over, and no nothing about), NoOfHeadlines returns 0. It seems obvious to me that DomDocument is not working the way its supposed to. Is this a version issue? How do I find out what version of DomDocument is on the staging server? Is there another possibility?

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• Syncing magento database froms development to production

  - by ringerce

  I use git for version control. I have a development, staging and production environment. When I finish in development I push to staging for review by the client. When approved, I push changes from staging to production. That works fine as long as there is no database changes. What happens if I install modules via Magento connect on local development and it makes database modifications. How would I push those changes up to the production server since the production server is always changing? Edit: I wrote two shell scripts. One that pulls the production database down to my development server, replaces base url with develpment url and updates my development db accordingly. It also leaves the production sql dump behind to be added to my git repo. I'm not really sure if it's beneficial to keep the raw dumps in source control but I'm going to try it out. The second scripts moves the development database up to staging and essentially performs the same operations as the first. Now when it comes time to move to production I pull the updated production repo into the production server and allow magento to do it's thing. I also started using SQLYog recently and it has a database comparison wizard which will give me the differences in my development and production databases and allow me to merge the changes in selectively. It always creates a migration script that I added to source control as well. If anything goes wrong I can run the comparison to see if anything was missed. Does this sounds like a decent workflow to you guys?

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• Setting up test an dlive enviornment - how?

  - by Sean

  I am a bit new to servers and stuff so had a question. I have my development team working on my website. They are in different countries and currently they put all the work live on the test site. But the test site is open to anyone who knows the URL. It is behind a directory but this effects my QA process because i cannot use the accurate URL structures to prevent the general public from seeing it. So what I want to do it: Have my site live on the net but only for me and my team, so like an internal network. Also I will need to mirror this to my live site when i put it live. So i guess this is something like setting up a staging and live environment. So how to do it and are both environments on the same physical server or do i need to buy two servers? And if i setup a staging environment how will i access it and my team since we are all spread out so i assume we need to log into something to access it? What about the URL - do i need a different URL for the test site or can i use the same live url for the test site? I plan to get a dedicated server + CDN for my site.

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• Good tools for keeping the content in test/staging/live environments synchronized

  - by David Stratton

  I'm looking for recommendations on automated folder synchronization tools to keep the content in our three environments synchronized automatically. Specifically, we have several applications where a user can upload content (via a File Upload page or a similar mechanism), such as images, pdf files, word documents, etc. In the past, we had the user doing this to our live server, and as a result, our test and staging servers had to be manually synchronized. Going forward, we will have them upload content to the staging server, and we would like some software to automatically copy the files off to the test and live servers EITHER on a scheduled basis OR as the files get uploaded. I was planning on writing my own component, and either set it up as a scheduled task, or use a FileSystemWatcher, but it occurred to me that this has probably already been done, and I might be better off with some sort of synchronization tool that already exists. On our web site, there are a limited number of folders that we want to keep synchronized. In these folders, it is an all or nothing - we want to make sure the folders are EXACT duplicates. This should make it fairly straightforward, and I would think that any software that can synchronize folders would be OK, except that we also would like the software to log changes. (This rules out simple BATCH files.) So I'm curious, if you have a similar environment, how did you solve the challenge of keeping everything synchronized. Are you aware of a tool that is reliable, and will meet our needs? If not, do you have a recommendation for something that will come close, or better yet, an open source solution where we can get the code and modify it as needed? (preferably .NET). Added Also, I DID google this first, but there are so many options, I am interested mostly in knowing what actually works well vs what they SAY works, which is why I'm asking here.

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• How to set up a staging apt repository to securely manage upgrades

  - by andreash

  Hello, I would like to be able to run automatic apt-get upgrade (once per hour) on our servers (Ubuntu 10.04), so that I don't have to do it manually on all of them (about 15). However, for production machines, that's not a good idea ... So here's my idea: Set up a local repository for all 'approved' updates for critical packages. I would then push updated packages from upstream to our local repo after I tested them, and all servers could automatically (apt-cron?) upgrade from this repository. So my question is this: How do I configure apt on the clients so that they use the local repository only for all packages which exist on the local repository, and the upstream one for all other packages? Does this actually make sense? Or am I missing something? Anyways, thanks for your insight! Andreas.

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• jQuery is not defined on my staging server but works fine on my local

  - by Tony

  If you pop open this page with your javascript console, you'll notice a bunch of JS errors. I don't get these errors in my local environment and it seems like it is happening because $ is not defined. I have tried to mimic my local environment exactly on staging by using the same environment.rb file and removing all JS caching but it is making no difference. Can anyone tell why jQuery is crapping out? It might be something really stupid, but I need a second pair of eyes.

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• Staging server .htaccess for images, css and js

  - by Gavin Hall

  As we build and demo sites on our staging server with individual root folders for each such as /CLIENTNAME, we need to keep all the css, js and internal links for these sites referencing the server root. The following works for one folder each, but not sure how to adapt to work for all folders. Currently AddHandler php5-script .php RewriteEngine On RewriteRule ^(images|css|js)\/(.*) /ONEFOLDER/$1/$2 Would like AddHandler php5-script .php RewriteEngine On RewriteRule ^(images|css|js)\/(.*) /EVERYFOLDER/$1/$2 Many thanks in advance.

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• Wordpress database migration

  - by Sean Cull

  Hi Everyone! I've looked around the Wordpress forums about this and didn't find anything so I thought I might try here. If you have a staging/dev Wordpress setup used for testing new pluging and such, how do you go about migrating the data in the staging database back to the production database? Is there a "Wordpress best practices" way to do this, or am I limited to having to manually migrate tables from one database to the other?

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• Git tool to remove lines from staging if they consist only of changes in whitespace

  - by Max Howell

  The point in removing trailing whitespace is that if everyone does it always then you end up with a diff that is minimal, ie. it consists only of code changes and not whitespace changes. However when working with other people who do not practice this, removing all trailing whitespace with your editor or a pre-commit hook results in an even worse diff. You are doing the opposite of your intention. So I am asking here if there is a tool that I can run manually before I commit that unstages lines from staging that are only changes in whitespace. Also a bonus would be to change the staged line to have trailing whitespace removed for lines that have code changes. Also a bonus would be to not do this to Markdown files (as trailing space has meaning in Markdown). I am asking here as I fully intend to write this tool if it doesn't already exist.

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• Dev Environment Tests Not 100% Compatible with Staging/Production in Rails

  - by aronchick

  We use a bunch of specific apps/APIs that (unfortunately) differ quite a bit from dev to staging/production. We use tests and continuous integration at each stage, but in dev, the tests fail annoyingly (throwing dialogs, etc - thanks Windows for the 64-bit notification!). I hate to write custom code, but are there some best practices for how to allow a subset of testing in ruby/rails - or for patching out specific tests when you're running on Windows? Some specific situations that: Identify.exe does not support 64-bit Windows and throws a dialog. Sethostname is not supported, and throws an error (at least it's command line).

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• Should Development / Testing / QA / Staging environments be similar?

  - by Walter White

  Hi all, After much time and effort, we're finally using maven to manage our application lifecycle for development. We still unfortunately use ANT to build an EAR before deploying to Test / QA / Staging. My question is, while we made that leap forward, developers are still free to do as they please for testing their code. One issue that we have is half our team is using Tomcat to test on and the other half is using Jetty. I prefer Jetty slightly over Tomcat, but regardless we using WAS for all the other environments. My question is, should we develop on the same application server we're deploying to? We've had numerous bugs come up from these differences in environments. Tomcat, Jetty, and WAS are different under the hood. My opinion is that we all should develop on what we're deploying to production with so we don't have the problem of well, it worked fine on my machine. While I prefer Jetty, I just assume we all work on the same environment even if it means deploying to WAS which is slow and cumbersome. What are your team dynamics like? Our lead developers stepped down from the team and development has been a free for all since then. Walter

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• Testing realistic loads for new versions of existing web app

  - by David Cournapeau

  Assuming I have a relatively complex web application, I am interested in testing performances of a new version using a traffic as realistic as possible. Traffic is relatively complex (session-based, lots of internal logic which depends on incoming requests). The webapp depends on many servers (databases, frontends, etc...). I can think of two basic directions: Recording every incoming request with its timestamp in production in a centralized manner and replaying it from N clients to reproduce a load as close as possible as the original. Issue: because we have many servers, getting the centralized log is not trivial. having a system duplicating requests to a staging area so that I could "plug" a dev version of my webapp to it at anytime without affecting the production. Issue: I have not found much information about it expect this, which suggests to me that may not be the best solution. OTOH, it is realistic by definition. What is the standard way of doing this kind of testing ? I did not find much information about load testing with complex, realistic traffic.

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• What's needed in a complete ASP.NET environment?

  - by Christian W

  We have a ASP3.0 application with a few ASP.NET (2.0) dittys mixed in. (Our longtime goal is to migrate everything to ASP.NET but that's not important for this issue) Our current test/deploy workflow is like this: 1 Use notepad++ or VS2008 to fix a bug/feature (depending on what I have open) 2 Open my virtual test-server 3 Copy the fixed file over, either with explorer, or if I can be bothered to open it, WinMerge 4 Test that the fix works 5 Close the virtual test-server 6 Connect to our host with VPN 7 Use WinMerge to update the files necessary 8 Pray to higher powers that the production environment is not so different that something bombs. To make things worse, only I have access to my "test-server". So I'm the only one testing it. I really want to make this a bit more robust, I even have a subversion setup running. But I always forget to commit changes... And I don't even work in my checked out folder, but a copy of what is currently in production... Can someone recommend some good reading on deploying, testing, staging and stuff like that. I currently use VS2008 and want to use subversion or GIT (or any other free VCS). Since I'm the only developer, teamsystem is not really an option (cost-related). I have found myself developing an "improved" feature, only to find a bug in the same feature in the production system. And since my "improved" feature incorporated deleting some old functionality, I have to fix bugs directly in production... That's not a fun feeling... (I have inherited this system recently... So it's not directly my fault that it is like this ;) )

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• Git: Stage into Commit, what is the right workflow?

  - by Lukasz Lew

  I just created a big piece of code I want to commit in several separate commits. So I can stage relevant parts, commit, stage, commit, ... and so on until I have all my changes commited. The missing part is how can I test whether I split the commit correcty. I.e. whether the part that is in staging area at least compiles? To do that I must somehow bring my work tree to be in sync with index (staging area) without losing the changes to be committed later. What is the right way to do it? What is the quickest way to do it? Update: How to do it with magit?

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• Which open source/free CMSs allow for staging content changes before putting live?

  - by elliot100

  I'm not sure that I've phrased the question all that well. What I'm really looking for is a feature of CMSs where content changes are made on a restricted access 'staging/preview' site, before being published to the live external site. The open source/free CMSs I've looked at so far (Textpattern, WordPress, Movable Type) don't seem to allow this, as far as I can see. Although they allow new content to be saved as draft/pending, viewable by users with appropriate privileges, this doesn't work with changes to existing content -- a post/page can't be live and also have a new version pending. (Do correct me if I'm wrong). I realise it should be possible to do this by making all changes on a staging site, and then replicating the contents of that database to a separate live site manually, but am looking for something a little more elegant. Edit: Just to clarify, both systems which involve synchronising a live database with a staging database systems which offer live/staging views of a single database would be of interest. Am sure I have seen both approaches in commercial/proprietary CMSs.

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