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  • Is it possible, and is it advisable, to host a mail server on a Windows Azure VM role?

    - by JcFx
    I know this question has been asked on various forums before, and that all the answer were negative, but many of the answers are quite old, and with Azure developing so quickly it seems useful to ask it again. Can we run a mail server (such as mailenable) on an Azure VM? And if not, why not? I've seen one posting on the MS forums (here) that suggests the IP of the Azure machine would be blacklisted as a source of spam. Why would this be (as opposed to hosting a mailserver on a dedicated box)?

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  • How can I know if a VM is used or not?

    - by Saariko
    I am running eSXI 4.1. In my main datastore I have plenty of folders, some of them has logical names, while the others don't, they hold BASE configurations/images of clients that I duplicate and activate. I only have a fraction of the actual clients loaded and running on the server. How can I know, but looking in the datastore folder, if the VM is in the inventory or not? If I right click on the vmx file, I can add it to the inventory - EVEN if the same client/folder is already active.

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  • Is it safe to change the time on hosting VM server?

    - by hydroparadise
    So, I noticed there's about a 10 minute drift on my VM hosting server from what time it's supposed to be. In traditional environments, I would just restart the system (and change the BIOS time if necassary). The hosting server is Ubuntu 12.04. Undertsanding that some process could be time sensitive (NTP?), I was wondering how this might affect the relation between the host and hosted system (currently hosting 4: 3 Ubuntu 12.04 servers with one being a web server, and 1 Windows Server 2008 file server). I am using Virtual Box 4 with it's headless option. Ultimately, I am trying to avoid from shutting down the host (which ultimately mean shutthing down the other hosted systems). Is this safe?

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  • How can I access a Web server in a VM from an iPad?

    - by Nick Haslam
    I have a virtual machine (running Windows Server 2012, if it's relevant), on VMware Workstation. It is running an Apache Tomcat web server, and I'm wanting to access that webserver from an iPad. Is this feasible, or even possible ? I have tried running Connectify Hotspot on the host machine, but that only gets me as far as being able to access a webpage on the host machine. It doesn't look to pass the connection through to the VM as they are on different subnets. Any thoughts are gratefully received.

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  • In VirtualBox, how can I access host localhost from guest (Visual Studio Dev Server from IE7 testing VM)?

    - by Seth
    Host OS is Win7 running MyApp in the Visual Studio Development Server, bound to localhost:51227, VM is VirtualBox configured with NAT. Guest OS is Win XP with IE7 installed. My goal is to debug MyApp (running on host) from within IE7 (running on guest). Visual Studio Development server only binds to the loopback network device (i.e. localhost). It does not bind to the external IP address of my host. I've tried access 10.0.2.2:51227 from IE7 on the guest (and confirmed that 10.0.2.2 is the gateway address using ipconfig), but it appears that 10.0.2.2 binds to the external IP of the Host, NOT the loopback IP (localhost), so this does not work. Any suggestions?

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  • How can a Virtualbox host connect to a guest VM when host wireless is disabled / host Ethernet cable is unplugged?

    - by uloBasEI
    I have a Virtualbox VM running on a computer connected to Internet via an Ethernet cable. The guest has a network adapter attached to a NAT. 2 ports (22 and 80) are forwarded so that the host can access them respectively on localhost:2222 and localhost:8080. When the Ethernet cable is plugged, both machine (host and guest) can access Internet and the host can access the SSH server/Webserver which ports are forwarded. When I unplug the Ethernet cable from the host, the host can not access the SSH server/Webserver of the guest anymore. Same situation with a Laptop connected to Internet via wireless when I disable the wireless adapter or set a wrong WPA key. My question is: is there a workaround for the host to access the guest services even if its Ethernet cable is unplugged / wireless is not available?

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  • Can an ESX server under heavy load cause cpu spikes on guest VM's?

    - by ReferentiallySeethru
    So we have a number of vm's running on an ESX 4.1 server for product testing. The ESX Server is at times under heavy load. We've been experiencing high CPU levels during some use cases, but we can't always duplicate this. If the ESX server as a whole is under heavy load could this cause guest machines to show high CPU usage? To ask it a different way, if the guest machines require more cpu resources than the server has, how does this affect CPU usage as indicated by the OS and process?

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  • I can't get an IP address from a VirtualBox VM on OSX from some routers (ie Internet cafes)

    - by ezrock
    On OSX 10.7.3, VirtualBox, using bridged adapter. Everything on the networking side works perfectly as expected in some networking environments, like my home router and some cafes. In others, I can't get an IP address over DHCP, and I don't know why. I suspect there is some setting on the router that is preventing me, or I have some issue with my MAC adress. When it's not working, in syslog, I'll see a few DHCPDISCOVER messages as my VM tries to find a DHCP server, and after a while, "No DHCPOFFERS received" And when I go to a "good" router, a simple "service network restart" is all I need to get an IP. Any ideas?

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  • Java Developer Workshop #2 ??!(12/1)

    - by ksky
    12/1??????????????Java?????????????????????????????(?2?:?1????????)??????!?????????????JavaFX/SE/EE/ME???????????????????????"Polyglot Programming on Java VM"??????Scala?JRuby?Groovy????Java VM??????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????Client Java Group?Vice President???JavaFX???????????Nandini Ramani???????????????JavaFX 2.0??????????????????????????Nandini?JavaOne???????????????????????????JavaOne??iPad?Windows?Linux?????????JavaFX???????????????????????? ???????????????????????????JavaOne??????????????Java EE/SE/ME???????????????????????????????????SE 8???????????EE????SE?FX???????ME??????????????????? ???Java VM????!???Scala?????????Scala??????????????????????????Scala????????????????????JRuby????????JRuby/CRuby???????????????????JRuby????????????????????????Groovy????????????????GROOVY???????????????Groovy????Java???????????????????? ???????????Java SE 7?JavaFX 2.0?????????????????Java VM?????????????????????????????! ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????!????????????????????ustream?????????????

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  • Oracle Solaris 11 ?????????:?Oracle Solaris 11 ?????·????·??? ?2????

    - by kazun
    2012?2?20???????????? ??13F????????????Oracle Solaris 11???????????Oracle Solaris 11 ?????·????·????????????????????????2??????????Automated Installer(AI)???Distribution Constructor??????????????????????????????50????????????????????????????????? Oracle Solaris 11 ????????? - ?????????????????? - ???????????????????????? - 2????????????????? ???? Oracle 11 ??????? ?Oracle Solaris 11 ??????????????·??????????(???????? ??????????? ????????????? ??? ??? ??:???)???Oracle Solaris 11????????????????????????? Oracle Solaris 11 ???Oracle Solaris 10 ??????????????????????????2?????????????????(????????GUI???)???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????? ???????????????:Automated Installer ????????"hands-free"??????????? Automated Installer?(?? ???????????? ??????????? ?????????????? ??????????????:???)???Oracle Solaris 11 ???????Automated Installer (AI)????????? AI????????????????????Solaris Zones ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????Jumpstart ?????????????????? AI?Image Packaging System (IPS)????????????????????????????????????OS???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????AI??????(XML?????????????)?SC???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????????????????????AI ???????????DHCP ????????????????????????????? VirtualBox ??????????????? ?:Oracle Solaris Studio ??? AI??????????????????????? ?????????? ???????????????????:Distribution Constructor ?????????????????????????????????????????????? Distribution Constructor?(?? ???????????? ??????????? ????????????? ??????????????:???)???? ?????????Oracle Solaris 11 ????????????????????????????????????? "Distribution Constructor" ?????????????"Distribution Constructor" ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????"Distribution Constructor"???LiveCD/USB???????????????ISO?????3???OS?????????????????????Distribution Constructor?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????Distribution Constructor??Solaris ?ZFS???????????AI??????????????????????????XML??????????? ?????????3??????????????????????????????????????????????????????IPS??????????????custom-script????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????? ?????????? Oracle Solaris ??????? ??????????Installer Disk(3??DVD)????????????????????????Oracle Solaris Live CD(x86)??1???Oracle Solaris 11 Interactive Text Installer??SPARC??x86?????1???????????Live CD??????????Solaris 11 ?????????????????????Interactive Text Installer ??????????????(???????????????????????????????)?Interactive Text Installer ???????????????????????????????????? ???Solaris 11 VM???? for Oracle VM VirtualBox ?????????????????????(?Solaris 11 VM ???? for Oracle VM VirtualBox ???????Oracle VM for x86 ????????)? Oracle VM VirtualBox??????? Solaris 11 VM???? for Oracle VM VirtualBox??????? Oracle Solaris 11?????????????????????????? ?????? Oracle Solaris 10 JumpStart ?? Oracle Solaris 11 ???????????? ???? Oracle Solaris 11 ????????????? Oracle Solaris 11 ???????????

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  • What's wrong with my vmware start script?

    - by Tore Niedahl
    I am starting a vmware 2.x vm on a linux host. This is my script: #!/bin/sh vmrun -T server -h https://localhost:11768/sdk -u tore -p mypass123 start "[my1] server1/server1.vmx" I have defined a local datastore [my1] as /mnt/my1/vm and the physical location of server1.vmx is /mnt/my1/vm/server1/server1.vmx The result when I call the script is: Error: Cannot open VM: [my1] server1/server1.vmx, The virtual machine cannot be found But I can start the vm from the browser ui.

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  • When .VHD get updated?

    - by Recce2jp
    Hello, I have a VM with a .vhd file however, when I connet to the VM (by RDP) and make some changes (create a directory and add a small file with notepad) the .VHD file stays unchanged. The 'Date modified' of the .VHD stays at the starttime of the VM. 1/How can we force an update of het VM while the VM is running? 2/Where aree the temporary changes kept? Hypervisor: Microsoft Hyper-V server 2008R2 (free download version) regards, Maxim

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  • Virtual Machine Library not updating

    - by jeremyyip
    Hi, I have a problem with my library window. I use to have a XP VM, which I deleted and now have a Vista VM. Every time I start Fusion, the XP VM shortcut will still be in the library (File not found), and the Vista VM won't be. I have tried re-installing Fusion but the same XP shortcut keeps coming up. Fusion doesn't seem to be updating the list of VM I currently have for some reason. Any ideas? Lots of thanks Jeremy

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  • What benchmark tool to use to benchmark hardware for VM server?

    - by Mark0978
    We are setting up a new piece of hardware to virtualize several of our servers on. Choices are RAID 5, RAID 6, and RAID 0+1. We are wanting to benchmark all three before we go live with the machine, but I'm not sure how to test the speed. Since we will be using it to host VMs, what will the actual disk traffic look like? What can I use to see if RAID 6 is too slow? Short of setting up the system with all the VM's on it and running that way, then redoing on all the work, I'm not sure how to test it. It them becomes more of a subjective test than an objective one. I'm worried that RAID6 will have too much overhead, that RAID5 will be to fragile with 3TB drives and I've never worked with 0+1 at all. So in short I'd like to setup the base machine (which will be running Linux) and then test the underlying SW RAID for speed. What kind of tool exists to simulate this kind of load? Barring the lack of a specific tool, how about a generic FS testing tool that will simulate different loads?

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  • Centos VM serving multiple public IP: how to configure network interface?

    - by Glasnhost
    I have a Centos 5.6 VM (Vsphere client) already responding to two different public IPs on eth0 and eth0:1 and I'm trying to add eth0:2. I copied the eth0 config file and restarted the network service. I don't understand which other steps are needed... ifconfig eth0 Link encap:Ethernet HWaddr 00:40:46:B9:00:41 inet addr:10.1.12.10 Bcast:10.1.12.255 Mask:255.255.255.0 UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST MTU:1500 Metric:1 RX packets:163371837 errors:77 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0 TX packets:168210961 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0 collisions:0 txqueuelen:1000 RX bytes:1891221045 (1.7 GiB) TX bytes:855899500 (816.2 MiB) Interrupt:59 Base address:0x2000 eth0:1 Link encap:Ethernet HWaddr 00:40:46:B9:00:41 inet addr:10.1.12.11 Bcast:10.1.12.255 Mask:255.255.255.0 UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST MTU:1500 Metric:1 Interrupt:59 Base address:0x2000 eth0:2 Link encap:Ethernet HWaddr 00:40:46:B9:00:41 inet addr:10.1.12.12 Bcast:10.1.12.255 Mask:255.255.255.0 UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST MTU:1500 Metric:1 Interrupt:59 Base address:0x2000 lo Link encap:Local Loopback inet addr:127.0.0.1 Mask:255.0.0.0 UP LOOPBACK RUNNING MTU:16436 Metric:1 RX packets:188976973 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0 TX packets:188976973 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0 collisions:0 txqueuelen:0 RX bytes:2015642664 (1.8 GiB) TX bytes:2015642664 (1.8 GiB) more /etc/resolv.conf nameserver 10.1.12.1 route -n Kernel IP routing table Destination Gateway Genmask Flags Metric Ref Use Iface 10.1.12.0 0.0.0.0 255.255.255.0 U 0 0 0 eth0 169.254.0.0 0.0.0.0 255.255.0.0 U 0 0 0 eth0 0.0.0.0 10.1.12.1 0.0.0.0 UG 0 0 0 eth0

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  • Ubuntu boot hangs after message "Running /scripts/init-bottom ... done"

    - by Douglas B. Staple
    I've been trying to copy a Proxmox container based on the Ubuntu Precise Standard template to a VirtualBox VM. I am now stuck at a point where my new Ubuntu/VirtualBox VM hangs after the message "Running /scripts/init-bottom ... done" during boot. I started by installing Ubuntu Server 12.04.4 LTS on a VirtualBox VM. Ubuntu Server 12.04.4 LTS was the closest "official" Ubuntu ISO to the Proxmox container OS I could find. I installed all updates on both the Proxmox container and on the VirtualBox VM. The idea was to get same version kernal running on the ProxMox container and VirtualBox VM. sudo apt-get update ; sudo apt-get upgrade ; sudo apt-get dist-upgrade sudo reboot rsync the entire proxmox container to a temporary directory in the VirtualBox VM: cd / mkdir /tmp/backup rsync -e ssh -av --exclude={/dev,/proc,/sys,/tmp,/run,/mnt,/media,/lost+found,/boot,/selinux} root@my_proxmox_container_hostname:/ /tmp/backup Shut down the virtual machine, and boot the VM with a bootable linux image. I used the Desktop image of Ubuntu 12.04 LTS, ubuntu-12.04.4-desktop-i386.iso Drop to a root prompt. Mount the VM root filesystem: sudo mount /dev/sda1 /mnt Remove files from most of /mnt cd /mnt sudo rm -rf bin etc home lib opt sbin root usr var Move all of the files from /mnt/backup into /mnt sudo mv /mnt/tmp/backup/* /mnt Rebooted system. For me, at this point the system freezes after starting, after the message: Running /scripts/init-bottom ... done I've tried reinstalling GRUB and all manner of other thing. I am almost ready to give up.

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  • Virutal Machine loses network connectivity on Hyper V Cluster

    - by Chris W
    We're running a number of VMs on a 6 node failover cluster of blades using Hyper V. We have an intermittent issue (every few days at different times - not a fixed frequency) of VMs losing network connectivity. Console access to the VM suggests all is fine and the underlying blade has normal connectivity. To resolve the problem we either have to re-start the VM or, more usually, we do a live migration to another blade which fires up connectivity and we then migrate it back to the original blade. I've had 3 instances of this happen with a specific VM running on a particular blade however it has happened once with a different VM running on a different blade. All VMs and blades have the same basic setup and are running Windows 2008 R2. Any ideas where I should be looking to diagnose the possible causes of this problem as the event logs provide no help? Edit: I've checked that each blade is running the latest NIC drivers and all seem to be fine. Something that is confusing me - a failover or restart of the VM resolves the issue. Whilst I need to work out the underlying issue that is causing the NICs to hang I'm also concerned that the VM didn't failover to another node which would have solved the outage for me. Is there a way to configure the cluster so that it can tell that the VM guest has lost connectivity and fail it over? As things stand the cluster is assuming that the VM is running happily as I presume Hyper V says everything is great even though there is a problem.

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  • 2 Server FC SAN Configuration

    - by BSte
    I have 2 identical servers: -48GB Ram -8GigE NIC's -2FC NIC's -2x72GB RAID1 Hard Drives -Server 2008R2 Host I also Have a Fibre Channel SAN: -16x146GB RAID10 Hard Drives -2xDual-port FC Controllers (Controller A and B both have ports 1 and 2) -Server 1 has Fiber to Ports A1 and B1 -Server 2 has Fiber to Ports A2 and B2 -I kept the default config with 1 Virtual Disk and 1 Volume -The default mappings show ports A1,A2,B1,B2 on LUN 0 with read-write My goal is: -2xVM's with IIS and Guest Level Failover -2xVM's with SQL 2008 Enterprise using a Single DB and Guest Level Failover -1xVM that is an application server, preferable with Host Failover. From what I read, this will also need AD for clustering to work. -I need at least 1 VM always running for IIS and the SQLDB. This includes hardware failover and application (ie: reboot a VM for Critical updates) I was told I could install the VM's and run them from the SAN, and this is what I've tried: Installed MPIO and HyperV on Server1 and Server 2 Added the SAN as Disk E: on both servers, made it GPT and formatted NTFS Configured HyperV on both server to store use E:\VD and E:\VHD On server1, I was able to install 3 VM's on the SAN and all worked well. On server2, I would start installing the other 2 VM's, but always at some point the VM's would get a corrupt .VHD message (either server). Everything I found about the message typically related to antivirus, so I removed all antivirus on both Host servers (now only running 2008R2). I reformatted drive E: (SAN), recreated the VHD and VD directories, installed 3 VM's on Server 1, and then had the same issue when installing VM's on Server2. Obviously something is wrong, but I'm not certain what exactly. My questions: 1) Are my goals possible with this hardware setup? -I've read 2008R2 supports FC SAN's, but a lot of articles seem to only give examples with iSCSCI setups 2) What would be the suggested route on setting up the SAN (disks,volumes,LUN's)? I've worked with HyperV on a single machine before and never had issues. Actual experience working on SAN's and clustering is new to me. Any suggestions or recommendations to get me in the right direction would be much appreciated.

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  • vmware - ACE, Workstation - how to manage remoe clients??

    - by tom smith
    Hi. Exploring Vmware products/services and have a few questions. As I understand VM, you can use VMWare Workstation to create a VM of a target machine/box/OS. Let's call this VM, "foo". If I have 100 client PCs in my dept, and I want to install the VM (foo) on each client, and also manage the remote VM instances of (foo). How can I accompish this? Let's assume that the client machines are running Windows7, and have the vmplayer app installed on the box. I'm looking to do the following kinds of actions regarding the remote client machines: -Update the foo VM/image with new updated copies -Make sure that every VM "foo" has the same user, but a unique passwd -Monitor the traffic/status of each client VM "foo" oin each client -Start/Stop each client VN "foo" from the master console -Etc... Can this be accomplished? How would I do it, what services/products would I need? I've tried toalking to a few of the pre-sales guys in VMWare, and got nowhere, other than telling me to email my questions!! Looking at google shed more insight, but I still have questions. So, if you have detailed VMWare understanding, pointers to consultants, or resellers who can help, all pointers are greatly appreciated. Thanks -tom

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  • How do I convert an AMD module from a singleton to an instance?

    - by Jamie Ide
    I'm trying to convert a working Durandal view model module from a singleton to an instance. The original working version followed this pattern: define(['knockout'], function(ko) { var vm = { activate: activate, companyId: null; company: ko.observable({}) }; return vm; function activate(companyId) { vm.companyId = companyId; //get company data then vm.company(data); } } The new version exports a function so that I get a new instance on every request... define(['knockout'], function(ko) { var vm = function() { activate = activate; companyId = null; company = ko.observable({}); }; return vm; function activate(companyId) { vm.companyId = companyId; //get company data then vm.company(data); } } The error I'm getting is "object function () [...function signature...] has no method company on the line vm.company(data);. What am I doing wrong? Why can I set the property but can't access the knockout observable? How should I refactor the original code so that I get a new instance on every request? My efforts to simplify the code for this question hid the actual problem. My real code was using Q promises and calling two methods with Q.All. Since Q is in the global namespace, it couldn't resolve my viewmodel after converting to a function. Passing the view model to the methods called by Q resolved the problem.

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  • OpenStack: How to make Cloudify use the floating IP instead of the fixed one?

    - by polslinux
    I have a problem with Cloudify (both 2.5 and 2.6-rc release). I have an All-In-One Openstack 2013.1.1 setup and I'm trying to use Cloudify to bootstrap a cirros 0.3.1 vm. My quantum configuration is: pool of fixed ip (10.0.0.0/24) for vm management; pool of floating ip (192.168.1.170-190) taken from 192.168.1.1/24 (my lan) When I deploy a vm first, an ip from 10.0.0.0/24 is given (I cannot reach it from my PCs because it is only for vm management) and then I associate a floating ip with which I can ping (and ssh) the deployed machine. The problem is when I do: bootstrap-cloud openstack because Cloudify stay forever into "attempting to access management vm 10.0.0.3" and this is due to the fact that 10.0.0.3 is not reachable. What can I do to get Cloudify take the floating ip instead of the fixed one?

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  • Friday Tips #34

    - by Chris Kawalek
    Happy Friday! I wanted to take the opportunity this week to not give out a tip per se, but to point you to a really fantastic white paper that you might have missed. It's called What It Takes to Deploy and Manage a Private Cloud with Oracle VM. The paper is filled with useful information and it's written in a really entertaining style, tackling the IT challenges of a friendly systems administrator named Dave. It gives a great overview of application-driven virtualization and covers Oracle VM, Oracle VM Templates, Oracle VM Storage Connect, and Oracle Enterprise Manager. Read the white paper What It Takes to Deploy and Manage a Private Cloud with Oracle VM. See you next week! -Chris 

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  • JavaScript malware analysis

    - by begueradj
    I want to test websites for JavaScript malware presence . I plan to develop a Python program that sends the URL of a given website to a virtual machine where the dynamic execution of the eventual malicious JavaScript embedded in the website's page is monitored. My questions: Should my VM be Windows or Linux ? What if the malware damages my VM: is there a hint how to avoid that ? Or launch a new VM automatically instead ? If I use telnet client library to communicate with the VM: must I implement a server within the VM to deal with my queries or can I overcome this ? I am jut looing for hints, general ideas. Thank you for any help.

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  • M-V-VM, isn't the Model leaking into the View?

    - by BFree
    The point of M-V-VM as we all know is about speraration of concerns. In patterns like MVVM, MVC or MVP, the main purpose is to decouple the View from the Data thereby building more flexible components. I'll demonstrate first a very common scenario found in many WPF apps, and then I'll make my point: Say we have some StockQuote application that streams a bunch of quotes and displays them on screen. Typically, you'd have this: StockQuote.cs : (Model) public class StockQuote { public string Symbol { get; set; } public double Price { get; set; } } StockQuoteViewModel.cs : (ViewModel) public class StockQuoteViewModel { private ObservableCollection<StockQuote> _quotes = new ObservableCollection<StockQuote>(); public ObservableCollection<StockQuote> Quotes { get { return _quotes; } } } StockQuoteView.xaml (View) <Window x:Class="WpfApplication1.Window1" xmlns="http://schemas.microsoft.com/winfx/2006/xaml/presentation" xmlns:x="http://schemas.microsoft.com/winfx/2006/xaml" xmlns:local="clr-namespace:WpfApplication1" Title="Window1" Height="300" Width="300"> <Window.DataContext> <local:StockQuoteViewModel/> </Window.DataContext> <Window.Resources> <DataTemplate x:Key="listBoxDateTemplate"> <StackPanel Orientation="Horizontal"> <TextBlock Text="{Binding Symbol}"/> <TextBlock Text="{Binding Price}"/> </StackPanel> </DataTemplate> </Window.Resources> <Grid> <ListBox ItemTemplate="{StaticResource listBoxDateTemplate}" ItemsSource="{Binding Quotes}"/> </Grid> </Window> And then you'd have some kind of service that would feed the ObservableCollection with new StockQuotes. My question is this: In this type of scenario, the StockQuote is considered the Model, and we're exposing that to the View through the ViewModel's ObservableCollection. Which basically means, our View has knowledge of the Model. Doesn't that violate the whole paradigm of M-V-VM? Or am I missing something here....?

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