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  • Dictionary as DataMember in WCF after installing .NET 4.5 [migrated]

    - by Mauricio Ulate
    After installing .NET Framework 4.5 with Visual Studio 2012, whenever I want to obtain the reference from a WCF service, my dictionaries are changed into arrays. For example, Dictionary<int, double> is changed into ArrayOfKeyValueOfintdoubleKeyValueOfintdouble. This happens in both Visual Studio 2012 and 2010 (both Express). I've reviewed my configuration and the dictionary data type in the service reference configuration is System.Collection.Generic.Dictionary. Changing this doesn't make a difference. Reverting to just using Visual Studio 2010 and .NET 4.0 is not an option.

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  • creating a google wave clone using php/mysql/jquery

    - by jeansymolanza
    seasons greetings to all. i have a question that has been rather bugging me as of late. does anyone know how one can create a google wave clone using php/mysql/jquery as primary points of development. any ideas on how this might be possible and recommend any starting points? i have some time off work and it would be an interesting project to undertake as i want to use it in an e-learning framework next year. i will be testing the product on a XAMPP local server. i understand some of the technologies that google wave using but i am rather curious as to how these can be developed to a decent standard using php/mysql/jquery (i mention these three because i am quite adept at them). any links to resources best suited to an intermediate programmer would be appreciated. many thanks and God bless. so far i have this: http://konrness.com/javascript/google-wave-style-scroll-bar-jquery-plugin/

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  • When should I make the first commit to source control?

    - by Kendall Frey
    I'm never sure when a project is far enough along to first commit to source control. I tend to put off committing until the project is 'framework-complete' and primarily commit features from then on. (I haven't done any personal projects large enough to have a core framework too big for this.) I have a feeling this isn't best practice, though I'm not sure what all could go wrong. Let's say, for example, I have a project which consists of a single code file. It will take about 10 lines of boilerplate code, and 100 lines to get the project working with extremely basic functionality (1 or 2 features). Should I first check in: The empty file? The boilerplate code? The first features? At some other point? Also, what are the reasons to check in at a specific point?

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  • Representing and executing simple rules - framework or custom?

    - by qtips
    I am creating a system where users will be able to subscribe to events, and get notified when the event has occured. Example of events can be phone call durations and costs, phone data traffic notations, and even stock rate changes. Example of events: customer 13532 completed a call with duration 11:45 min and cost $0.4 stock rate for Google decreased with 0.01% Customers can subscribe to events using some simple rules e.g. When stock rate of Google decreases more than 0.5% When the cost of a call of my subscription is over $1 Now, as the set of different rules is currently predefined, I can easily create a custom implemention that applies rules to an event. But if the set of rules could be much larger, and if we also allow for custom rules (e.g. when stock rate of Google decreses more than 0.5% AND stock rate of Apple increases with 0.5%), the system should be able to adapt. I am therefore thinking of a system that can interpret rules using a simple grammer and then apply them. After som research I found that there exists rule-based engines that can be used, but I am unsure as they seem too complicated and may be a little overkill for my situation. Is there a Java framework suited for this area? Should we use framework, a rule engine, or should we create something custom? What are the pros and cons?

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  • Knowledge Transfer without a Plan

    - by Kanini
    Hello...We are doing work for a particular client managing their CRM implementation. (The CRM itself is a product which has been largely customized to suit my client's needs). Now, they want us to manage the Oracle batch jobs/ETL as well. And for this, they are ready to provide us with Knowledge Transfer. (The Oracle batch jobs/ETL is managed in-house by the client now). After much persuasion, I got one of the Project Lead (designation-wise) to email the client asking for a KT Plan. (The Project Lead kept saying that they have never had KT plans before and all that for which I offered I will draft a template and even that was rejected!). Email from us to them - Can you please share with us the KT Plan? Response from them - Not sure what is expected from my side? The KT is planned for tomorrow from 11 am onwards where Functional knowledge of existing ETL Data migration package will be shared. How do you handle such a client? Most likely what is going to happen is this. The person who is giving the KT will say that I have given complete Knowledge Transfer and we will go back and say that "No, this was not covered. For this, they provided an overview alone and left it at that!" and so on... My Project Lead also did not respond to that email. He just said that the meeting is scheduled to happen at 11 AM (basically repeating whatever the email said and left for the day!). What could I possibly do? PS: Look for another job is a very helpful answer, but I am not looking for it. :-)

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  • How can I thoroughly evaluate a prospective employer?

    - by glenviewjeff
    We hear much about code smells, test smells, and even project smells, but I have heard no discussion about employer "smells" outside of the Joel Test. After much frustration working for employers with a bouquet of unpleasant corporate-culture odors, I believe it's time for me to actively seek a more mature development environment. I've started assembling a list of questions to help vet employers by identifying issues during a job interview, and am looking for additional ideas. I suppose this list could easily be modified by an employer to vet an employee as well, but please answer from the interviewee's perspective. I think it would be important to ask many of these questions of multiple people to find out if consistent answers are given. For the most part, I tried to put the questions in each section in the order they could be asked. An undesired answer to an early question will often make follow-ups moot. Values What constitutes "well-written" software? What attributes does a good developer have? Same question for manager. Process Do you have a development process? How rigorously do you follow it? How do you decide how much process to apply to each project? Describe a typical project lifecycle. Ask the following if they don't come up otherwise: Waterfall/iterative: How much time is spent in upfront requirements gathering? upfront design? Testing Who develops tests (developers or separate test engineers?) When are they developed? When are the tests executed? How long do they take to execute? What makes a good test? How do you know you've tested enough? What percentage of code is tested? Review What is the review process like? What percentage of code is reviewed? Design? How frequently can I expect to participate as code/design reviewer/reviewee? What are the criteria applied to review and where do the criteria come from? Improvement What new tools and techniques have you evaluated or deployed in the past year? What training courses have your employees been given in the past year? What will I be doing for the first six months in your company (hinting at what kind of organized mentorship/training has been thought through, if any) What changes to your development process have been made in the past year? How do you improve and learn from your mistakes as an organization? What was your organizations biggest mistake in the past year, and how was it addressed? What feedback have you given to management lately? Was it implemented? If not, why? How does your company use "best practices?" How do you seek them out from the outside or within, and how do you share them with each other? Ethics Tell me about an ethical problem you or your employees experienced recently and how was it resolved? Do you use open-source software? What open-source contributions have you made? Follow-Ups I liked what @jim-leonardo said on this Stack Overflow question: Really a thing to ask yourself: "Does this person seem like they are trying to recruit me and make me interested?" I think this is one of the most important bits. If they seem to be taking the attitude that the only one being interviewed is you, then they probably will treat you poorly. Good interviewers understand they have to sell the position as much as the candidate needs to sell themselves. @SethP added: Glassdoor.com is a good web site for researching potential employers. It contains information about how specific companies conduct interviews...

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  • What happened to GremCheck? Is there a viable replacement?

    - by goober
    I was a big fan of an app called "GremCheck" that was out a while back, that seems to have disappeared. It was a JavaScript included in a master page that placed an icon at the bottom of the page. It was used during testing. You could define your own tests, and the box could pop up per page and viewers would answer the questions you define (such as "Does this page have the correct title?", "Is the Grammar Correct", "Does the design look consistent"). This was useful for end-user tests groups and quick testing for developers if time was squeezed on full functional testing. Anyone know where GremCheck went, if I can get to it, and if there's anything out there that does something similar?

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  • Dealing with selfish team member(s)

    - by thegreendroid
    My team is facing a difficult quandary, a couple of team members are essentially selfish (not to be confused with dominant!) and are cherry-picking stories/tasks that will give them the most recognition within the company (at sprint reviews etc. when all the stakeholders are present). These team members are very good at what they do and are fully aware of what they are doing. When we first started using agile about a year ago, I can say I was quite selfish too (coming from a very individual-focused past). I took ownership of certain stories and didn't involve anyone else in it, which in hindsight wasn't the right thing to do and I learnt from that experience almost immediately. We are a young team of very ambitious twenty somethings so I can understand the selfishness to some extent (after all everyone should be ambitious!). But the level to which this selfishness has reached of late has started to bother me and a few others within my team. The way I see it, agile/scrum is all about the team and not individuals. We should be looking out for each other and helping each other improve. I made this quite clear during our last retrospective, that we should be fair and give everyone a chance. I'll wait and see what comes out of it in the next few sprints. In the meantime, what are some of the troubles that you have faced with selfish members and how did you overcome them?

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  • What are requirements for a successful SOA?

    - by Amir Rezaei
    I’m an EA in an organisation with 10000+ employees. Strategically we are heading towards SOA. Currently I’m researching about SOA’s and creating a road map and I have come over many blogs that talk about “SOA is dead”. We can all agree that SOA is not just web-services. The problem is that I have hard to find any information on the reason behind SOA-fail stories in enterprises. What went bad and what went right? My question is: What are common SOA mistakes in enterprises that make SOA fail in long term? Is the any best practice for SOA? What are the most important requirements for a successful SOA in an enterprise? It would be good feedback towards our SOA strategy in this organisation. I have tried to narrow down the question, but it’s hard due to the nature of the question.

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  • Generic Repository with SQLite and SQL Compact Databases

    - by Andrew Petersen
    I am creating a project that has a mobile app (Xamarin.Android) using a SQLite database and a WPF application (Code First Entity Framework 5) using a SQL Compact database. This project will even eventually have a SQL Server database as well. Because of this I am trying to create a generic repository, so that I can pass in the correct context depending on which application is making the request. The issue I ran into is my DataContext for the SQL Compact database inherits from DbContext and the SQLite database inherits from SQLiteConnection. What is the best way to make this generic, so that it doesn't matter what kind of database is on the back end? This is what I have tried so far on the SQL Compact side: public interface IRepository<TEntity> { TEntity Add(TEntity entity); } public class Repository<TEntity, TContext> : IRepository<TEntity>, IDisposable where TEntity : class where TContext : DbContext { private readonly TContext _context; public Repository(DbContext dbContext) { _context = dbContext as TContext; } public virtual TEntity Add(TEntity entity) { return _context.Set<TEntity>().Add(entity); } } And on the SQLite side: public class ElverDatabase : SQLiteConnection { static readonly object Locker = new object(); public ElverDatabase(string path) : base(path) { CreateTable<Ticket>(); } public int Add<T>(T item) where T : IBusinessEntity { lock (Locker) { return Insert(item); } } }

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  • I need to know the reasons why learning Linux Shell Scripting (BASH) benefits me as a PHP developer

    - by Ahmad Farouk
    I have been developing web sites/applications using the LAMP stack for almost 5 years. Currently I am interested to dig more into Linux OS, specifically BASH but from a web developer perspective, not from sys admin perspective. I am not intending to administrate Linux Servers. Only, I want to know, does learning shell scripting benefit me as a PHP developer? Does it make me a better, more skilled developer, or just its something irrelevant? Reasons, and examples are highly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

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  • Retrieving system information without WMI

    - by user94481
    I want to write an application where I can fetch system information like CPU-Z (for example) does. I don't want to rely on WMI, because I want to grab stuff like information about the manufacturing process of the GPU (like from a database) and I don't want to maintain this by myself, because that would require too much effort. I already came up with HWiNFO32 SDK but I wonder if there are any (maybe free) alternatives to it?

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  • Python Coding standards vs. productivity

    - by Shroatmeister
    I work for a large humanitarian organisation, on a project building software that could help save lives in emergencies by speeding up the distribution of food. Many NGOs desperately need our software and we are weeks behind schedule. One thing that worries me in this project is what I think is an excessive focus on coding standards. We write in python/django and use a version of PEP0008, with various modifications e.g. line lengths can go up to 160 chars and all lines should go that long if possible, no blank lines between imports, line wrapping rules that apply only to certain kinds of classes, lots of templates that we must use, even if they aren't the best way to solve a problem etc. etc. One core dev spent a week rewriting a major part of the system to meet the then new coding standards, throwing away several suites of tests in the process, as the rewrite meant they were 'invalid'. We spent two weeks rewriting all the functionality that was lost, and fixing bugs. He is the lead dev and his word carries weight, so he has convinced the project manager that these standards are necessary. The junior devs do as they are told. I sense that the project manager has a strong feeling of cognitive dissonance about all this but nevertheless agrees with it vehemently as he feels unsure what else to do. Today I got in serious trouble because I had forgotten to put some spaces after commas in a keyword argument. I was literally shouted at by two other devs and the project manager during a Skype call. Personally I think coding standards are important but also think that we are wasting a lot of time obsessing with them, and when I verbalized this it provoked rage. I'm seen as a troublemaker in the team, a team that is looking for scapegoats for its failings. Since the introduction of the coding standards, the team's productivity has measurably plummeted, however this only reinforces the obsession, i.e. the lead dev simply blames our non-adherence to standards for the lack of progress. He believes that we can't read each other's code if we don't adhere to the conventions. This is starting to turn sticky. Now I am trying to modify various scripts, autopep8, pep8ify and PythonTidy to try to match the conventions. We also run pep8 against source code but there are so many implicit amendments to our standard that it's hard to track them all. The lead dev simple picks faults that the pep8 script doesn't pick up and shouts at us in the next stand-up meeting. Every week there are new additions to the coding standards that force us to rewrite existing, working, tested code. Thank heavens we still have tests, (I reverted some commits and fixed a bunch of the ones he removed). All the while there is increasing pressure to meet the deadline. I believe a fundamental issue is that the lead dev and another core dev refuse to trust other developers to do their job. But how to deal with that? We can't do our job because we are too busy rewriting everything. I've never encountered this dynamic in a software engineering team. Am I wrong to question their adherence to coding standards? Has anyone else experienced a similar situation and how have they dealt with it successfully? (I'm not looking for a discussion just actual solutions people have found)

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  • What programming languages have you taught your children?

    - by Dubmun
    I'm a C# developer by trade but have had exposure to many languages (including Java, C++, and multiple scripting languages) over the course of my education and career. Since I code in the MS world for work I am most familiar with their stack and so I was excited when Small Basic was announced. I immediately started teaching my oldest to program in it but felt that something was missing from the experience. Being able to look up every command with the IDE's intellisense seemed to take something from the experience. Sure, it was easy to grasp but I found myself thinking that a little more challenge might be in order. I'm looking for something better and I would like to hear your experiences with teaching your children to program in whatever language you have chosen to do so in. What did you like and dislike? How fast did they pick it up? Were they challenged? Frustrated? Thank you very much!

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  • Is it my responsibility to code for errors on a completely separate website and domain when redirecting or doing a single sign on?

    - by kappasims
    If my application is responsible for redirecting/doing a single sign on to a destination managed by a third party, in general, where should I draw the line for error handling during this process? If an error happens on the other application's end, is it reasonable for my stakeholder to expect the application I am working with to share responsibility for handling these scenarios? Notes: I am going to keep solutions limited to those that entail only one request--I am familiar with the "do an xmlhttprequest and see how that fares before doing anything else" approach. I am speaking in terms of an enterprise-level application with fairly decent customer traffic.

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  • Releasing an open source project without getting embarrassed

    - by Hopeful
    I've been working by myself on a fairly large open source project for quite a while and it's nearing the point where I'd like to release it. However, I'm self-taught and I don't really know anyone who could adequately review my project. A few years ago, I had released a small bit of code which pretty much got ripped apart (in a critical sense) on the forum where I released it. Even though the code worked, the criticism was accurate but brutal. It prompted me to begin searching for best practices for everything and in the end I feel that it made me a much better developer. I've gone over everything in my project so many times trying to make it perfect that I've lost count. I believe in my project and think it has the potential to help a lot of people and I feel like I've done some cool things in interesting ways with it. Still, because I'm self-taught, I can't help but wonder what gaps exist in my self-education. The way my code was ripped apart last time isn't something I'd like to repeat. I think my two biggest fears with releasing my project that I've poured countless hours into are being absolutely embarrassed because I missed some patently obvious things because of my self-education or, worse, releasing it to the sound of crickets. Is there anyone who has been in a similar situation? I'm not afraid of constructive criticism, so long as it is constructive and not just a rant on how I screwed up. I know there is a code review site on StackExchange, but it's not really set up for large projects and I didn't feel like the community there is large enough yet to get good feedback if I were to post parts of my project piecemeal (I tried with one file). What can I do to give my project at least some measure of success without getting embarrassed or devestated in the process?

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  • Managing Eclipse projects in source control

    - by Matt Phillips
    I've been using eclipse for a long time to do development. One of the problems I've come across when working on other people's projects is if they come from source control, some of the eclipse project files "default.properties" and other xml config files are missing. Its usually a big pain in the butt to get the project running in eclipse. I understand the reasoning to not have certain files tracked because they may be full of specific stuff to a certain eclipse install. How do all of you manage that?

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  • Is there a solution for SugarCRM that can map roles or privileges to Active Directory groups?

    - by Cory Larson
    We're presenting SugarCRM as an option to one of our clients, but they want to drive permissions within Sugar by users' AD groups. Current LDAP integration with SugarCRM only does password management. Does anybody know of a plug-in that supports this? I've searched and have not been able to find anything. Has anybody change the LDAP module code within Sugar to accommodate these features? I'd be interested in chatting with you. I apologize if this isn't on the correct site; neither serverfault nor stackoverflow seemed like the correct place. Perhaps webapps? Thanks!

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  • What is the best way to learn how to develop drivers?

    - by Kenneth
    At some point in my career I would definitely like to get involved in some embedded programming. I was thinking that starting out with developing some drivers would be a good place to develop my abilities in the regard. I'm open to doing so on either windows or linux platform (eventually will want to probably attempt both). What tools would you recommend that I look into to get me started on this project? Any other resources that you have found to be helpful (i.e. books, websites, programs, etc)? Any advice/recommendations? Thanks!

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  • Materialized View does not import properly when importing a db for a second time in another schema [closed]

    - by marinus
    When I import a database with materialized view mv_mt in just one schema there are no errors. create materialized view mv_mt refresh complete next trunc( sysdate ) + 1 as SELECT sysdate, media_type.* from media_type; But when I try to import the same database to a copy in another schema in the same tablespace I get the following errors: IMP-00017: following statement failed with ORACLE error 1: "BEGIN DBMS_JOB.ISUBMIT(JOB=>438,WHAT=>'dbms_refresh.refresh(''"ALEXANDRA"" "."MV_MT"'');',NEXT_DATE=>TO_DATE('2012-07-02:14:22:36','YYYY-MM-DD:HH24:MI:" "SS'),INTERVAL=>'sysdate + 1 / 24 / 60 / 6 ',NO_PARSE=>TRUE); END;" IMP-00003: ORACLE error 1 encountered ORA-00001: unique constraint (SYS.I_JOB_JOB) violated ORA-06512: at "SYS.DBMS_JOB", line 100 ORA-06512: at line 1 IMP-00017: following statement failed with ORACLE error 23421: "BEGIN dbms_refresh.make('"ALEXANDRA"."MV_MT"',list=>null,next_date=>null," "interval=>null,implicit_destroy=>TRUE,lax=>FALSE,job=>438,rollback_seg=>NUL" "L,push_deferred_rpc=>TRUE,refresh_after_errors=>FALSE,purge_option => 1,par" "allelism => 0,heap_size => 0); END;" IMP-00003: ORACLE error 23421 encountered ORA-23421: job number 438 is not a job in the job queue ORA-06512: at "SYS.DBMS_SYS_ERROR", line 86 ORA-06512: at "SYS.DBMS_IJOB", line 793 ORA-06512: at "SYS.DBMS_REFRESH", line 86 ORA-06512: at "SYS.DBMS_REFRESH", line 62 ORA-06512: at line 1 IMP-00017: following statement failed with ORACLE error 23410: "BEGIN dbms_refresh.add(name=>'"ALEXANDRA"."MV_MT"',list=>'"ALEXANDRA"."MV" "_MT"',siteid=>0,export_db=>'ORCL01'); END;" IMP-00003: ORACLE error 23410 encountered ORA-23410: materialized view "ALEXANDRA"."MV_MT" is already in a refresh group ORA-06512: at "SYS.DBMS_SYS_ERROR", line 95 ORA-06512: at "SYS.DBMS_IREFRESH", line 484 ORA-06512: at "SYS.DBMS_REFRESH", line 140 ORA-06512: at "SYS.DBMS_REFRESH", line 125 ORA-06512: at line 1 Anyone any ideas?

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  • Questions to ask a 3rd party API provider

    - by Jarede
    I'm due to meet with a developer/sales person from a new 3rd party resource we're about to start using. The main topic I'll be interested in, is their API as I will be the developer making use of it and explaining it to the rest of the team. What questions would you recommend asking? Things I'm already thinking about are: What happens and how will I be notified when they depreciate a method? Is there ever any downtime? Who will I deal with first when I have API issues?

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  • exact answer for “what is j2ee?” - job interview

    - by shuuchan
    I'd like to ask if someone of you knows the exact meaning of JEE. That's because a collegue of mine was asked this question in a job interview, and was "unable to answer properly"... to speak with his interwiewer's words. And when he told me what he said to his interviewer I got really surprised, since it was more or less what I would have answered myself - in a concise form, the first paragraph of this article. J2EE (Java 2 Platform, Enterprise Edition) is a Java platform designed for the mainframe-scale computing typical of large enterprises. Sun Microsystems (together with industry partners such as IBM) designed J2EE to simplify application development in a thin client tiered environment. J2EE simplifies application development and decreases the need for programming and programmer training by creating standardized, reusable modular components and by enabling the tier to handle many aspects of programming automatically. That seems not to be enough, since the interviewer asked for "more precise and less general definition". Is there really a more precise definition for JEE? Or did my colleague just find the fussiest-interviewer-ever? :)

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  • Does a team of developers need a manager?

    - by Amadiere
    Background: I'm currently part of a team of four: 1 manager, 1 senior developer and 2 developers. We do a range of bespoke in-house systems / projects (e.g. 6-8 weeks) for an organisation of around 3500 staff, as well as all the maintenance and support required from the systems that have been created before. There is not enough of us to do all the work that is potentially coming our way - we're understaffed. Management acknowledge this, but budget restraints limit our ability to recruit additional members to the team (even if we make the salary back in savings). The Change This leaves us where we are now. Our manager is due to leave his role for pastures new, leaving a vacancy in the team. Management are using this opportunity to restructure our team which would see the team manager role replaced by another developer and another senior developer. Their logic being that we need more developers, so here's a way of funding it (one of the roles is partially funded from another vacant post). The team would have no direct line manager and the roles and responsibilities would be divided up between the seniors and the (relatively new to post) service manager (a non-technical role with little-to-no development knowledge/experience whose focus is shared amongst a number of other teams and individuals) - who would be our next actual manager up the food chain. I guess the final question is: Is it possible to run a development team without an manager? Have you had experience of this? And what things could go wrong / could be of benefit to us? I'd ideally like to "see the light" and the benefits of doing things this way, or come up with some points for argument against it.

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  • Which iPhone ad API has produced the highest revenue for you?

    - by Kyle Humfeld
    This isn't a technical question, but more of a request for advice and empirical/anecdotal data. I'm nearly done writing a free app for iPhone, and I'm at the stage where I'm going to put ads into the app. I've had mixed success in the past with iAd (their fill rates have been atrocious recently, and their payouts have cut by about 75% over the past 4 months or so), and would like to know how much ad revenue you, the community, has seen from the various ad APIs you've used for your iPhone apps. This isn't a request for opinion, i.e. which is 'better', only what kinds of numbers you're seeing. I don't need absolute figures, but 'iAd pays x% higher than AdMob, and y% lower than AdSense' would be extremely helpful to me as I make my decision as to which ad API to integrate into my App. Also, have you had any experience or success with integrating multiple ad APIs into the same app? That's something I'm considering doing in my current iAd-filled apps (particularly my iPad app, which has yet to receive a single impression after nearly 60,000 requests)... something like: 1) Request-from-iAd 2) if that fails, request-from-adSense 3) if that fails, request-from-adMob 4) if that fails, ... etc.

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  • Which iPhone ad API has produced the highest revenue for you?

    - by Kyle Humfeld
    This isn't a technical question, but more of a request for advice and empirical/anecdotal data. I'm nearly done writing a free app for iPhone, and I'm at the stage where I'm going to put ads into the app. I've had mixed success in the past with iAd (their fill rates have been atrocious recently, and their payouts have cut by about 75% over the past 4 months or so), and would like to know how much ad revenue you, the community, has seen from the various ad APIs you've used for your iPhone apps. This isn't a request for opinion, i.e. which is 'better', only what kinds of numbers you're seeing. I don't need absolute figures, but 'iAd pays x% higher than AdMob, and y% lower than AdSense' would be extremely helpful to me as I make my decision as to which ad API to integrate into my App. Also, have you had any experience or success with integrating multiple ad APIs into the same app? That's something I'm considering doing in my current iAd-filled apps (particularly my iPad app, which has yet to receive a single impression after nearly 60,000 requests)... something like: 1) Request-from-iAd 2) if that fails, request-from-adSense 3) if that fails, request-from-adMob 4) if that fails, ... etc.

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