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  • Improvements to Joshua Bloch's Builder Design Pattern?

    - by Jason Fotinatos
    Back in 2007, I read an article about Joshua Blochs take on the "builder pattern" and how it could be modified to improve the overuse of constructors and setters, especially when an object has a large number of properties, most of which are optional. A brief summary of this design pattern is articled here [http://rwhansen.blogspot.com/2007/07/theres-builder-pattern-that-joshua.html]. I liked the idea, and have been using it since. The problem with it, while it is very clean and nice to use from the client perspective, implementing it can be a pain in the bum! There are so many different places in the object where a single property is reference, and thus creating the object, and adding a new property takes a lot of time. So...I had an idea. First, an example object in Joshua Bloch's style: Josh Bloch Style: public class OptionsJoshBlochStyle { private final String option1; private final int option2; // ...other options here <<<< public String getOption1() { return option1; } public int getOption2() { return option2; } public static class Builder { private String option1; private int option2; // other options here <<<<< public Builder option1(String option1) { this.option1 = option1; return this; } public Builder option2(int option2) { this.option2 = option2; return this; } public OptionsJoshBlochStyle build() { return new OptionsJoshBlochStyle(this); } } private OptionsJoshBlochStyle(Builder builder) { this.option1 = builder.option1; this.option2 = builder.option2; // other options here <<<<<< } public static void main(String[] args) { OptionsJoshBlochStyle optionsVariation1 = new OptionsJoshBlochStyle.Builder().option1("firefox").option2(1).build(); OptionsJoshBlochStyle optionsVariation2 = new OptionsJoshBlochStyle.Builder().option1("chrome").option2(2).build(); } } Now my "improved" version: public class Options { // note that these are not final private String option1; private int option2; // ...other options here public String getOption1() { return option1; } public int getOption2() { return option2; } public static class Builder { private final Options options = new Options(); public Builder option1(String option1) { this.options.option1 = option1; return this; } public Builder option2(int option2) { this.options.option2 = option2; return this; } public Options build() { return options; } } private Options() { } public static void main(String[] args) { Options optionsVariation1 = new Options.Builder().option1("firefox").option2(1).build(); Options optionsVariation2 = new Options.Builder().option1("chrome").option2(2).build(); } } As you can see in my "improved version", there are 2 less places in which we need to add code about any addition properties (or options, in this case)! The only negative that I can see is that the instance variables of the outer class are not able to be final. But, the class is still immutable without this. Is there really any downside to this improvement in maintainability? There has to be a reason which he repeated the properties within the nested class that I'm not seeing?

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  • Dictionary as DataMember in WCF after installing .NET 4.5 [migrated]

    - by Mauricio Ulate
    After installing .NET Framework 4.5 with Visual Studio 2012, whenever I want to obtain the reference from a WCF service, my dictionaries are changed into arrays. For example, Dictionary<int, double> is changed into ArrayOfKeyValueOfintdoubleKeyValueOfintdouble. This happens in both Visual Studio 2012 and 2010 (both Express). I've reviewed my configuration and the dictionary data type in the service reference configuration is System.Collection.Generic.Dictionary. Changing this doesn't make a difference. Reverting to just using Visual Studio 2010 and .NET 4.0 is not an option.

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  • Best way for a technical manager to stay up to date on technology

    - by JoelFan
    My manager asked for a list of technical blogs he should follow to stay current on technology. His problem is he keeps hearing terms that he hasn't heard of (i.e. NoSql, sharding, agure, sevice bus, etc.) and he would prefer to at least have a fighting chance of knowing something about them without having to be reactive and looking them up. Also I think he wants to have a big picture of all the emerging technologies and where they fit in together instead of just learning about each thing in isolation. He asked about blogs but I'm thinking print magazines may also help.

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  • Do immutable objects and DDD go together?

    - by SnOrfus
    Consider a system that uses DDD (as well: any system that uses an ORM). The point of any system realistically, in nearly every use case, will be to manipulate those domain objects. Otherwise there's no real effect or purpose. Modifying an immutable object will cause it to generate a new record after the object is persisted which creates massive bloat in the datasource (unless you delete previous records after modifications). I can see the benefit of using immutable objects, but in this sense, I can't ever see a useful case for using immutable objects. Is this wrong?

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  • MBO in software development

    - by Euphoric
    I just found out our middle sized software development company is going to implement MBO. As a big fan of Agile, I see this as counter-intuitive, because I believe it is impossible to create a objective, that is measurable. Especialy where creativity, experience, knowledge and profesionalism are important traits and expanding those are objectives and goals of many. So my question is, what is your opinion on using MBO in software development? And if there are development companies using MBO, either successfuly or unsucessfuly.

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  • Microsoft Dev Centre accounts

    - by Phil Murray
    Looks like Microsoft is offering a special offer of 95% of the yearly subscription for the Phone Dev Centre (I didn't say anything about desperate). What I was wondering is do you need a seperate account to publish to the Windows Phone app centre and the Windows App Centre? Also I heard some horror stories about the time it takes to get application published on the Windows phone marketplace, does anyone have any experience with this? Windows Phone Dev Centre Windows App Dev Centre

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  • Data structure for pattern matching.

    - by alvonellos
    Let's say you have an input file with many entries like these: date, ticker, open, high, low, close, <and some other values> And you want to execute a pattern matching routine on the entries(rows) in that file, using a candlestick pattern, for example. (See, Doji) And that pattern can appear on any uniform time interval (let t = 1s, 5s, 10s, 1d, 7d, 2w, 2y, and so on...). Say a pattern matching routine can take an arbitrary number of rows to perform an analysis and contain an arbitrary number of subpatterns. In other words, some patterns may require 4 entries to operate on. Say also that the routine (may) later have to find and classify extrema (local and global maxima and minima as well as inflection points) for the ticker over a closed interval, for example, you could say that a cubic function (x^3) has the extrema on the interval [-1, 1]. (See link) What would be the most natural choice in terms of a data structure? What about an interface that conforms a Ticker object containing one row of data to a collection of Ticker so that an arbitrary pattern can be applied to the data. What's the first thing that comes to mind? I chose a doubly-linked circular linked list that has the following methods: push_front() push_back() pop_front() pop_back() [] //overloaded, can be used with negative parameters But that data structure seems very clumsy, since so much pushing and popping is going on, I have to make a deep copy of the data structure before running an analysis on it. So, I don't know if I made my question very clear -- but the main points are: What kind of data structures should be considered when analyzing sequential data points to conform to a pattern that does NOT require random access? What kind of data structures should be considered when classifying extrema of a set of data points?

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  • I want to sell my software [C# desktop application] but I was Stuck in licencing [closed]

    - by Surendra Soni
    Possible Duplicate: if I use .NET Framework for my application, do I have to pay anything to Microsoft? I have developed a desktop application called "Institute Management System" which has modules like Class manager, Subject manager, Topics manager, Student inquiry manager Student admission manager, Fees manager, Exam manager etc. using C# for the front end and MS Access for the back end. The main problem is that I want to sell it and earn some money but I heard that my application needs to be registered at Microsoft, and I would have to get a license from them for selling, and have to pay them money too. I have spent four months developing it at my own expense, and worked very hard to develop it. So I want some tips, advice, any suggestion for the same. Please also tell me the procedure for all of the required registrations and payment issues. And I also want to ask you if you Can you suggest any other technology where I develop my application and sell it without worrying about licencing and related issues? I am now more confused about that "MS technology is open source or not? "

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  • Naming Convention for Dedicated Thread Locking objects

    - by Chris Sinclair
    A relatively minor question, but I haven't been able to find official documentation or even blog opinion/discussions on it. Simply put: when I have a private object whose sole purpose is to serve for private lock, what do I name that object? class MyClass { private object LockingObject = new object(); void DoSomething() { lock(LockingObject) { //do something } } } What should we name LockingObject here? Also consider not just the name of the variable but how it looks in-code when locking. I've seen various examples, but seemingly no solid go-to advice: Plenty of usages of SyncRoot (and variations such as _syncRoot). Code Sample: lock(SyncRoot), lock(_syncRoot) This appears to be influenced by VB's equivalent SyncLock statement, the SyncRoot property that exists on some of the ICollection classes and part of some kind of SyncRoot design pattern (which arguably is a bad idea) Being in a C# context, not sure if I'd want to have a VBish naming. Even worse, in VB naming the variable the same as the keyword. Not sure if this would be a source of confusion or not. thisLock and lockThis from the MSDN articles: C# lock Statement, VB SyncLock Statement Code Sample: lock(thisLock), lock(lockThis) Not sure if these were named minimally purely for the example or not Kind of weird if we're using this within a static class/method. Several usages of PadLock (of varying casing) Code Sample: lock(PadLock), lock(padlock) Not bad, but my only beef is it unsurprisingly invokes the image of a physical "padlock" which I tend to not associate with the abstract threading concept. Naming the lock based on what it's intending to lock Code Sample: lock(messagesLock), lock(DictionaryLock), lock(commandQueueLock) In the VB SyncRoot MSDN page example, it has a simpleMessageList example with a private messagesLock object I don't think it's a good idea to name the lock against the type you're locking around ("DictionaryLock") as that's an implementation detail that may change. I prefer naming around the concept/object you're locking ("messagesLock" or "commandQueueLock") Interestingly, I very rarely see this naming convention for locking objects in code samples online or on StackOverflow. Question: What's your opinion generally about naming private locking objects? Recently, I've started naming them ThreadLock (so kinda like option 3), but I'm finding myself questioning that name. I'm frequently using this locking pattern (in the code sample provided above) throughout my applications so I thought it might make sense to get a more professional opinion/discussion about a solid naming convention for them. Thanks!

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  • High Salaried Investment Banking Jobs for Developers — What are the pitfalls?

    - by Jaywalker
    This question might make more sense to somebody having multi-threaded programming experience in Java/ C++ with some job experience in London / Singapore. There is a huge market of Investment Banking development jobs with astonishingly high salaries (sometimes more than 100K pounds per year). Can someone with experience as a front office/trading developer tell what are the requirements to land this type job? What are the downside that i should be ready for?

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  • How do I find a qualified web designer in my area?

    - by Incognito
    I just sent out emails to five local web design companies to my area asking to take drawings to HTML/CSS/jQuery. None of the ones who accepted the deal seem suitable to myself. Others rejected the offer because they wanted to 'provide an end-to-end solution' or are 'booked till June'. The local companies did not seem suitable to myself because my review process is this: goto their website, do a view-source. I'll see really weird things (contact us forms that go nowhere), really old things (mm_menu.js), and portfolios that are non-existent (aren't on the site, don't link anywhere, or otherwise). The company would like to hire as locally as they can rather than out-source to another country. Answers I'm looking for Processes you use when searching for someone How you qualify their aptitude for the project Anything that you think I'm doing wrong, or should be doing also. Answers I'm not looking for: "Hello sir please contact me we do everything for 10 dolla." My bud's great at this stuff, call him. example.com is the best for this.

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  • Server side C# MVC with AngularJS

    - by Ryan Langton
    I like using .NET MVC and have used it quite a bit in the past. I have also built SPA's using AngularJS with no page loads other than the initial one. I think I want to use a blend of the two in many cases. Set up the application initially using .NET MVC and set up routing server side. Then set up each page as a mini-SPA. These pages can be quite complex with a lot of client side functionality. My confusion comes in how to handle the model-view binding using both .NET MVC and the AngularJS scope. Do I avoid the use of razor Html helpers? The Html helpers create the markup behind the scene so it could get messy trying to add angularjs tags using the helpers. So how to add ng-model for example to @Html.TextBoxFor(x = x.Name). Also ng-repeat wouldn't work because I'm not loading my model into the scope, right? I'd still want to use a c# foreach loop? Where do I draw the lines of separation? Has anyone gotten .NET MVC and AngularJS to play nicely together and what are your architectural suggestions to do so?

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  • If Scheme is untyped, how can it have numbers and lists?

    - by Dokkat
    Scheme is said to be just an extension of the Untyped Lambda Calculus (correct me if I am wrong). If that is the case, how can it have Lists and Numbers? Those, to me, look like 2 base types. So I'd say Racket is actually an extension of the Simply Typed Lambda Calculus. No? Question: Is Scheme's type system actually based or more similar to Simply Typed or Untyped Lambda Calculus? In what ways does it differ from Untyped and or Simply Typed Lambda Calculus? (The same question is valid for "untyped" languages such as Python and JavaScript - all of which look like they have base types to me.)

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  • Vim key mappings / plugin XCode?

    - by Daniel Upton
    I'm a developer who mostly does web stuff in ruby and C#.. I'd like to start tinkering with iOS and Mac development, Over the last few month i've been trying to get fluent in one set of key bindings (vi / vim because it just feels right).. I have the awesome ViEmu installed for visual studio on windows which gives me a ton of the vim awesomeness side by side with visual studio power toys.. Is there anything like this for xcode? I know i could set up MacVim as the default editor but i'm not too interested in this as it means losing all of xcode's cocoa awareness.. The other option of course would be to go for the lowest common denominator and switch to emacs (as the mac keybindings are based massively on emacs) but lets not think about that for too long. :P

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  • Managing Eclipse projects in source control

    - by Matt Phillips
    I've been using eclipse for a long time to do development. One of the problems I've come across when working on other people's projects is if they come from source control, some of the eclipse project files "default.properties" and other xml config files are missing. Its usually a big pain in the butt to get the project running in eclipse. I understand the reasoning to not have certain files tracked because they may be full of specific stuff to a certain eclipse install. How do all of you manage that?

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  • Does heavy library and snippet codes usage make you a bad programmer?

    - by Henrik P.
    Overall I'm in programming for about 8 years now and it seems to me that I'm relying more and more on open source libraries and snippets (damn you GitHub!) to "get the job done". I know that in time I could write me own implementation but I like to focus on the overall design. Is this normal (non cooperate environment)? Does it make you a bad programmer if "programming" is nothing more than cluing different libraries together. Feels like it. I know about "don't reinvent the wheel" but what happens when you don't invent a single wheel anymore. What's your take on this?

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  • Is there a solution for SugarCRM that can map roles or privileges to Active Directory groups?

    - by Cory Larson
    We're presenting SugarCRM as an option to one of our clients, but they want to drive permissions within Sugar by users' AD groups. Current LDAP integration with SugarCRM only does password management. Does anybody know of a plug-in that supports this? I've searched and have not been able to find anything. Has anybody change the LDAP module code within Sugar to accommodate these features? I'd be interested in chatting with you. I apologize if this isn't on the correct site; neither serverfault nor stackoverflow seemed like the correct place. Perhaps webapps? Thanks!

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  • Cross-Platform Google Chrome App Installer

    - by Volomike
    I have fallen in love with the Google Chrome App way of making an "app" (and extensions as well). What kind of installer would you recommend (free and/or cheap is preferred) that is cross-platform (Mac, Windows 2000+, Linux (Ubuntu, Debian, Suse, Redhat, or derivatives)) and lets me deploy Google Chrome Apps on workstations? It would need to let me deploy Google Chrome, or update Google Chrome to a particular version, as necessary, in order for my app to work.

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  • How accurate is "Business logic should be in a service, not in a model"?

    - by Jeroen Vannevel
    Situation Earlier this evening I gave an answer to a question on StackOverflow. The question: Editing of an existing object should be done in repository layer or in service? For example if I have a User that has debt. I want to change his debt. Should I do it in UserRepository or in service for example BuyingService by getting an object, editing it and saving it ? My answer: You should leave the responsibility of mutating an object to that same object and use the repository to retrieve this object. Example situation: class User { private int debt; // debt in cents private string name; // getters public void makePayment(int cents){ debt -= cents; } } class UserRepository { public User GetUserByName(string name){ // Get appropriate user from database } } A comment I received: Business logic should really be in a service. Not in a model. What does the internet say? So, this got me searching since I've never really (consciously) used a service layer. I started reading up on the Service Layer pattern and the Unit Of Work pattern but so far I can't say I'm convinced a service layer has to be used. Take for example this article by Martin Fowler on the anti-pattern of an Anemic Domain Model: There are objects, many named after the nouns in the domain space, and these objects are connected with the rich relationships and structure that true domain models have. The catch comes when you look at the behavior, and you realize that there is hardly any behavior on these objects, making them little more than bags of getters and setters. Indeed often these models come with design rules that say that you are not to put any domain logic in the the domain objects. Instead there are a set of service objects which capture all the domain logic. These services live on top of the domain model and use the domain model for data. (...) The logic that should be in a domain object is domain logic - validations, calculations, business rules - whatever you like to call it. To me, this seemed exactly what the situation was about: I advocated the manipulation of an object's data by introducing methods inside that class that do just that. However I realize that this should be a given either way, and it probably has more to do with how these methods are invoked (using a repository). I also had the feeling that in that article (see below), a Service Layer is more considered as a façade that delegates work to the underlying model, than an actual work-intensive layer. Application Layer [his name for Service Layer]: Defines the jobs the software is supposed to do and directs the expressive domain objects to work out problems. The tasks this layer is responsible for are meaningful to the business or necessary for interaction with the application layers of other systems. This layer is kept thin. It does not contain business rules or knowledge, but only coordinates tasks and delegates work to collaborations of domain objects in the next layer down. It does not have state reflecting the business situation, but it can have state that reflects the progress of a task for the user or the program. Which is reinforced here: Service interfaces. Services expose a service interface to which all inbound messages are sent. You can think of a service interface as a façade that exposes the business logic implemented in the application (typically, logic in the business layer) to potential consumers. And here: The service layer should be devoid of any application or business logic and should focus primarily on a few concerns. It should wrap Business Layer calls, translate your Domain in a common language that your clients can understand, and handle the communication medium between server and requesting client. This is a serious contrast to other resources that talk about the Service Layer: The service layer should consist of classes with methods that are units of work with actions that belong in the same transaction. Or the second answer to a question I've already linked: At some point, your application will want some business logic. Also, you might want to validate the input to make sure that there isn't something evil or nonperforming being requested. This logic belongs in your service layer. "Solution"? Following the guidelines in this answer, I came up with the following approach that uses a Service Layer: class UserController : Controller { private UserService _userService; public UserController(UserService userService){ _userService = userService; } public ActionResult MakeHimPay(string username, int amount) { _userService.MakeHimPay(username, amount); return RedirectToAction("ShowUserOverview"); } public ActionResult ShowUserOverview() { return View(); } } class UserService { private IUserRepository _userRepository; public UserService(IUserRepository userRepository) { _userRepository = userRepository; } public void MakeHimPay(username, amount) { _userRepository.GetUserByName(username).makePayment(amount); } } class UserRepository { public User GetUserByName(string name){ // Get appropriate user from database } } class User { private int debt; // debt in cents private string name; // getters public void makePayment(int cents){ debt -= cents; } } Conclusion All together not much has changed here: code from the controller has moved to the service layer (which is a good thing, so there is an upside to this approach). However this doesn't look like it had anything to do with my original answer. I realize design patterns are guidelines, not rules set in stone to be implemented whenever possible. Yet I have not found a definitive explanation of the service layer and how it should be regarded. Is it a means to simply extract logic from the controller and put it inside a service instead? Is it supposed to form a contract between the controller and the domain? Should there be a layer between the domain and the service layer? And, last but not least: following the original comment Business logic should really be in a service. Not in a model. Is this correct? How would I introduce my business logic in a service instead of the model?

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  • Github Organization Repositories, Issues, Multiple Developers, and Forking - Best Workflow Practices

    - by Jim Rubenstein
    A weird title, yes, but I've got a bit of ground to cover I think. We have an organization account on github with private repositories. We want to use github's native issues/pull-requests features (pull requests are basically exactly what we want as far as code reviews and feature discussions). We found the tool hub by defunkt which has a cool little feature of being able to convert an existing issue to a pull request, and automatically associate your current branch with it. I'm wondering if it is best practice to have each developer in the organization fork the organization's repository to do their feature work/bug fixes/etc. This seems like a pretty solid work flow (as, it's basically what every open source project on github does) but we want to be sure that we can track issues and pull requests from ONE source, the organization's repository. So I have a few questions: Is a fork-per-developer approach appropriate in this case? It seems like it could be a little overkill. I'm not sure that we need a fork for every developer, unless we introduce developers who don't have direct push access and need all their code reviewed. In which case, we would want to institute a policy like that, for those developers only. So, which is better? All developers in a single repository, or a fork for everyone? Does anyone have experience with the hub tool, specifically the pull-request feature? If we do a fork-per-developer (or even for less-privileged devs) will the pull-request feature of hub operate on the pull requests from the upstream master repository (the organization's repository?) or does it have different behavior? EDIT I did some testing with issues, forks, and pull requests and found that. If you create an issue on your organization's repository, then fork the repository from your organization to your own github account, do some changes, merge to your fork's master branch. When you try to run hub -i <issue #> you get an error, User is not authorized to modify the issue. So, apparently that work flow won't work.

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  • Codifying a natural language requirements spec

    - by ProfK
    I have a fairly technical functionality requirements spec, expressed in English prose, produced by my project manager. It is structured as a collection of UI tabs, where the requirements for each tab are expressed as a lit of UI fields and a list of business rules for the tab. Most business rules are for UI fields on a tab, e.g: a) Must be alphanumeric, max length 20. b) Must be a dropdown, with values from table x. c) Is mandatory. d) Is mandatory under certain conditions, e.g. another field is just populated, or has a specific value. Then other business rules get a little more complex. The spec is for a job application, so the central business object (table) is the Applicant, and we have several other tables with one-to-many relationships with applicant, such as Degree, HighSchool, PreviousEmployer, Diploma, etc. e) One such complex rule says a status field can only be assigned a certain value if a many-side record exists in at least one of the many-side tables. E.g. the Applicant has at least one HighSchool or at least one Diploma record. I am looking for advice on how to codify these requirements into a more structured specification defined in terms of tables, fields, and relationships, especially for the conditional rules for fields and for the presence of related records. Any suggestions and advice will be most welcome, but I would be overjoyed if i could find an already defined system or structure for expressing things like this.

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  • Closest location - Heapify or Build-heap

    - by Trevor Adams
    So lets say we have a set of gps data points and your current location. If asked to give the closest point to your current location we can utilize a heap with the distance being the key. Now if we update the current location, I suspect that only a few of the keys will change enough to violate the heap property. Would it be more efficient to rebuild the heap after recalculating the keys or to run heapify (assuming that only a few of the keys have changed enough). It is assumed that we don't jump around with the new location (new current location is close to the last current location).

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  • Proper Data Structure for Commentable Comments

    - by Wesley
    Been struggling with this on an architectural level. I have an object which can be commented on, let's call it a Post. Every post has a unique ID. Now I want to comment on that Post, and I can use ID as a foreign key, and each PostComment has an ItemID field which correlates to the Post. Since each Post has a unique ID, it is very easy to assign "Top Level" comments. When I comment on a comment however, I feel like I now need a PostCommentComment, which attaches to the ID of the PostComment. Since ID's are assigned sequentially, I can no longer simply use ItemID to differentiate where in the tree the comment is assigned. I.E. both a Post and a Post Comment might have an ID of '5', so my foreign key relationship is invalid. This seems like it could go on infinitely, with PostCommentCommentComment's etc... What's the best way to solve this? Should I have a field in the comment called "IsPostComment" or something of the like to know which collection to attach the ID to? This strikes me as the best solution I've seen so far, but now I feel like I need to make recursive DataBase calls which start to get expensive. Meaning, I get a Post and get all PostComments where ItemID == Post.ID && where IsPostComment == true Then I take that as a collection, gather all the ID's of the PostComments, and do another search where ItemID == PostComment[all].ID && where IsPostComment == false, then repeat infinitely. This means I make a call for every layer, and if I'm calling 100 Posts, I might make 1000 DB calls to get 10 layers of comments each. What is the right way to do this?

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  • Successful technical communities except for open-source?

    - by Joshua Fox
    Have you ever seen a successful technical community -- e.g. user group, industry organization? Am I asking about a group of software engineers who get together F2F (or maybe online) and discuss technical and industry issues with deep zeal and interest -- a place where meaningful connections are made. Here are the only examples I have ever seen: Open source Maybe the Silicon Valley Java Users' Group Homebrew Computing Club in the '70's This sort of thing does exist in academia. Of course, there are lots of conferences and attempts at user's groups. However, almost all committed, serious software engineers, when asked about this, say "I don't have the time", which means that the organizations are not worthwhile to the best in our profession. Has anyone seen any organizations with an ongoing spirit of enthusiasm from top software engineers?

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  • Ruby or Python?

    - by Bobby Tables
    Hi all, This question is extremely subjective and open-ended. It might even sound like something I should just research for myself and make my own decision. But I'd like to put it out there and get some thoughts from others. Long story short - I burned out with the rat race and am on a self-funded sabbatical this year. Much of it is to take a break from the corporate grind and travel around, but I also want to play around with new technologies and do some self-learning projects, to stay up to speed on programming, and well - I just love tinkering with programming, when there's no pressure! Here's the thing: I am a lifetime C/C++/Java programmer. I'm a bit of a squiggly bracket snob since I've been working with this family of languages for my entire programming career. So I'd like to learn a language which isn't so closely syntactically related to this group. What I'm basically looking for is a language which is relatively general purpose, fun to learn, has some new concepts that are different from C++/Java, and has a good community. A secondary consideration is that it has good web development frameworks. A tertiary consideration is that it's not totally academic (read: there are real world jobs out there using it). I've narrowed it down to Ruby or Python. My impression of Ruby is that it is extremely web oriented - that the only real application of it is as a server side scripting language for doing web stuff (mainly Ruby on Rails). For Python I'm not so sure. TL;DR and to put it as succinctly as possible: which of these would be better for a C++/Java guy to learn to get some new perspectives on programming? And which is more open and general purpose and applicable to a wider set of applications? I'm leaning towards Ruby at the moment, but I worry to an extent that it looks like it's used as nothing but a server side web language.

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