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  • Need recommendation for transferring ASP.NET MVC skills to PHP

    - by Tuck
    I am looking to translate my skills in .NET to PHP - specifically in regards to ASP.NET MVC. At work I am currently using .NET MVC 2.0 on a variety of projects and thoroughly enjoy the platform. Specifically I enjoy the very minimal configuration required to get a project up and running (just create the project, define routes, and start coding), as well as the ability for controller actions to return different items (i.e. ActionResult, JsonResult). Another piece I really like is the way the view/model interaction can be handled. For example I like being able to call return View(model) and having a view page (.aspx) load and having the full model object available to the view, regardless of the model type. I'm looking for a PHP implementation of MVC that is the most similiar to what I am already familiar with. I don't anything apart from the MVC functionality. I've looked at Zend, Symfony, CodeIgniter, etc. and, while they look like they'll be fun to play with in the future, they provide much more functionality than I need. I'd prefer to write my own DAL, form helpers, delegate handlers, authentication/ACL pieces, etc. In short, I just need something to handle the routing and view interactions and will worry about the model implementation myself. Can someone please point me to some lightweight code that accomplishes or comes close to accomplishing my objectives above. Or, can someone identify just the portions of a larger framework that do the same (again, I'm not currently interested in implementing something on a big framework, just the MVC portion and want to implement the model portion myself as much as possible). Thanks in advance.

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  • What design patterns are the worst or most narrowly defined?

    - by Akku
    For every programming project, Managers with past programming experience try to shine when they recommend some design patterns for your project. I like design patterns when they make sense or if you need a scalbale solution. I've used Proxies, Observers and Command patterns in a positive way for example, and do so every day. But I'm really hesitant to use say a Factory pattern if there's only one way to create an object, as a factory might make it all easier in the future, but complicates the code and is pure overhead. So, my question is in respect to my future career and my answer to manager types throwing random pattern-names around: Which design patterns did you use, that threw you back overall? Which are the worst design patterns, that you shouldn't have a look at if it's not that only single situation where it makes sense (read: which design patterns are very narrowly defined)? (It's like I was looking for the negative reviews of an overall good product of amazon to see what bugged people most in using design patterns). And I'm not talking about Anti-Patterns here, but about Patterns that are usually thought of as "good" patterns. Edit: As some answered, the problem is most often that patterns are not "bad" but "used wrong". If you know patterns, that are often misused or even difficult to use, they would also fit as an answer.

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  • what is best book to learn optimized programming in java [closed]

    - by Abhishek Simon
    Possible Duplicate: Is there a canonical book for learning Java as an experienced developer? Let me elaborate a little: I used to be a C/C++ programmer where I used data structure concept like trees, queues stack etc and tried to optimize as much as possible, minimum no. of loops, variables and tried to make it efficient. It's been a couple of years that I started writing java codes, but it is simply not that efficient in terms of performance, memory intensive etc. To the point: I want to enter programming challenges using java so I need to improve my approach at things I program. So please suggest me some books that can help me learn to program better and have a chance in solving challenges in programming.

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  • Is there any reason to use "plain old data" classes?

    - by Michael
    In legacy code I occasionally see classes that are nothing but wrappers for data. something like: class Bottle { int height; int diameter; Cap capType; getters/setters, maybe a constructor } My understanding of OO is that classes are structures for data and the methods of operating on that data. This seems to preclude objects of this type. To me they are nothing more than structs and kind of defeat the purpose of OO. I don't think it's necessarily evil, though it may be a code smell. Is there a case where such objects would be necessary? If this is used often, does it make the design suspect?

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  • Record management system java web framework

    - by Kamil Tomšík
    We're currently reconsidering technologies and frameworks to get more agile with "simple" RMS CRUD-based projects. In short, short-living things like this Right now we have a custom extension on top of SmartGWT but after some time it has proven not to be flexible enough. I also personally dislike the java-js compilation process and the whole GWT codebase. Not only is the design ugly, it also makes certain low-level js things very complicated if not completely impossible. So what I'm looking for is: closest to web as possible, like JSF or possibly Tapestry, it is very important to be able get "low" and weave framework if necessary. Happens more often than we thought. datagrid capable - Ext.js & PrimeFaces looks pretty good, Vaadin does too. db-schema generators (optional, no matter in which way) If it were only on me, I'd probably stick to Ext.js + custom rest-based java solution, possibly generated from database schema (not sure about concrete tooling yet). I only have experience with vanilla Ext.js, vanilla GWT and JSF 2.0 / Seam, so it hard for me to judge or even propose other frameworks. What would be your proposition? What are the problems you've faced? What was your solution and how hard do you think it was to deal with them in "big picture"?

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  • Organizing Business and Presentation entities

    - by simoneL
    Background I am developing a WPF project. This is the basic structure: User Interface (WPF Project); Interfaces (class library, contains all the interfaces and the entities used by the application; Modules (every module contains the logic of a specific argument, e.g. File Management, and can eventually contains Wpf User Controls). In the WPF Controls, to facilitate the binding operations I have created a BaseViewModel class which contains a Raise method that automates the binding mechanism (for further details, I used a technique similar to that one described in this article). The problem Understand which is the best way to separate Presentation form from the Business form in the entities classes. The case In the Interfaces project I have, for instance, the class User public class User { public virtual string Name { get; set; } // Other properties } In one of the modules I need to use the User class and to bind its properties to the User Interface controls. To do so I have to use a custom implementation of the get and set keywords. At first point, I thought to create a class in the Module called, for instance, ClientUser and override the properties that I need: public class ClientUser : User { private string name; public override string Name { get { return name; } set { Raise(out name, value); } } // Other properties } The problem is the Raise method, which is declared in the BaseViewModel class, but due to C# single inheritance constraint, I can't inherit from both classes. Which is the right way to implement this architecture?

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  • WCF Versioning, Naming and Endpoint URL

    - by Vinothkumar VJ
    I have a WCF Service and a Main Lib1. Say, I have a Save Profile Service. WCF gets data (with predefined data contract) from client and pass the same to the Main Class Lib1, generate response and send it back to client. WCF Method : SaveProfile(ProfileDTO profile) Current Version 1.0 ProfileDTO have the following UserName Password FirstName DOB (In string yyyy-mm-dd) CreatedDate (In string yyyy-mm-dd) Next Version (V2.0) ProfileDTO have the following UserName Password FirstName DOB (In UnixTimeStamp) CreatedDate (In UnixTimeStamp) Version 3.0 ProfileDTO have the following (With change in UserName and Password length validation) UserName Password FirstName DOB (In UnixTimeStamp) CreatedDate (In UnixTimeStamp) In simple we have DataContract and Workflow change between each version 1. How do I name the methods in WCF Service and Main Class Lib1? 2. Do I have to go with any specific pattern for ease development and maintenance? 3. Do I have to have different endpoints for different version? In the above example I have a method named “SaveProfile”. Do I have to name the methods like “SaveProfile1.0”, “SaveProfile2.0”, etc. If that is the case when there is no change between Version “3.0” and “4.0” then there will difficult in maintenance. I’m looking for a approach that will help in ease maintenance

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  • White box testing with Google Test

    - by Daemin
    I've been trying out using GoogleTest for my C++ hobby project, and I need to test the internals of a component (hence white box testing). At my previous work we just made the test classes friends of the class being tested. But with Google Test that doesn't work as each test is given its own unique class, derived from the fixture class if specified, and friend-ness doesn't transfer to derived classes. Initially I created a test proxy class that is friends with the tested class. It contains a pointer to an instance of the tested class and provides methods for the required, but hidden, members. This worked for a simple class, but now I'm up to testing a tree class with an internal private node class, of which I need to access and mess with. I'm just wondering if anyone using the GoogleTest library has done any white box testing and if they have any hints or helpful constructs that would make this easier. Ok, I've found the FRIEND_TEST macro defined in the documentation, as well as some hints on how to test private code in the advanced guide. But apart from having a huge amount of friend declerations (i.e. one FRIEND_TEST for each test), is there an easier idion to use, or should I abandon using GoogleTest and move to a different test framework?

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  • unit level testing, agile, and refactoring

    - by dsollen
    I'm working on a very agile development system, a small number of people with my doing the vast majority of progaming myself. I've gotten to the testing phase and find myself writing mostly functional level testing, which I should in theory be leavning for our tester (in practice I don't entirely...trust our tester to detect and identify defects enough to leave him the sole writter of functional tests). In theory what I should be writing is Unit level tests. However, I'm not sure it's worth the expense. Unit testing takes some time to do, more then functional testing since I have to set up mocks and plugs into smaller units that weren't design to run in issolation. More importantly, I find I refactor and redesign heavily-part of this is due to my inherriting code that needed heavy redesign and is still being cleaned up, but even once I've finished removing parts that need work I'm sure in the act of expanding the code I'll still do a decent amount of refactoring and redesign. It feels as if I will break my unit tests, forcing wasted time to refactor them as well, often due to unit test, by definition, having to be coupled so closely to the code structure. So.is it worth all the wasted time when functional tests, that will never break when I refactor/redesign, should find most defects? Do unit tests really provide that much extra defect detetection over through functional? and how does one create good unit tests that work with very quick and agile code that is modified rapidly? ps, I would be fine/happy with links to anything one considers an excellent resource for how to 'do' unit testing in a highly changing enviroment. edit: to clarify I am doing a bit of very unoffical TDD, I just seem to be writing tests on what would be considered a functional level rather then unit level. I think part of this is becaus I own nearly all of the project I don't feel I need to limit the scope as much; and part of it is that it's daunting to think of trying to go back and retroactively add the unit tests needed to cover enough code that I can feel comfortable testing only a unit without the full functionality and trust that unit still works with the rest of the units.

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  • Qt's future in the light of Nokia-Microsoft partnership

    - by Shinnok
    In case you missed it, a lot has happened in the last two day that could potentially impact the Qt framework, for the worse. :-( It will impact the mobile sector in several and probably not currently acknowledged ways, for sure. It started yesterday with Nokia's CEO Stephen Elop internal letter depicting Nokia sitting on a burning platform and the need for a big and aggressive shift in business. A day later, at the Nokia World conference, Nokia announced the partnership with Microsoft , which at the moment resumes to Nokia adopting the Windows Phone 7 platform and development environment, dumping Symbian along the road and tagging Meego as R&D(a pretty dangerous keyword if you ask me), as for Maemo/N900 series i guess it's bye bye for good. I know what you're thinking but no, Qt is not going to be ported to the Window Phone platform. And i'm also scared about this. You can watch the Elop & Ballmer joint press release here. Now after reading this huge thread on the Qt-interest mailing list i can't help but wonder, what is the future of Qt at Nokia, now that they aren't focused(at all?) on Qt anymore(remember the full focus switch on Qt as main development framework for all Nokia products(including Symbian, yes) back in October?). I love Qt, in my opinion it is the only true cross-platform application development framework and one of the few to make C++ development a joy(to the extent possible) and good things has happened to the framework and considerable momentum while under Nokia, thus i am wondering, what are the chances that Qt might suffer a slow death at Nokia after this? Yes i know about KDE.org and the fact that Qt is easily spawnable, but i still feel uneasy. It also must be horrible for all of the efforts either by Nokia employees or third parties that have gone into Symbian and all of the Ovi Store Symbian/Qt content and business and why not, Maemo/Meego. There are also massive layouts planned, i suspect Symbian techs and Qt? I'd love to hear your input on this? Is Qt future safe&proof? LE: The question as been gradually revised, improved and better referenced, thus you might want to throw a quick re-read to see what you might have missed.

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  • Next in Concurrency

    - by Jatin
    For past year I have been working a lot on concurrency in Java and have build and worked on many concurrent packages. So in terms of development in the concurrent world, I am quite confident. Further I am very much interested to learn and understand more about concurrent programming. But I am unable to answer myself what next? What extra should I learn or work on to inherit more skills related to Multi-core processing. If there is any nice book (read and enjoyed 'concurrency in practice' and 'concurrent programming in java') or resource's related to Multi-core processing so that I can go to the next level?

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  • Are there examples of non CRUD approaches?

    - by Pieter B
    I'm a programmer but also have worked as an archivist. As archivist it's a lot about keeping data. I often get into arguments with colleagues when it comes to operations on data. I don't like the U and the D in CRUD too much. Rather then update a record I prefer to add a new one and have a reference to the old record. That way you build a history of changes. I also don't like deleting records but rather mark them as inactive. Is there a term for this? Basically only creating and reading data? Are there examples of this approach?

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  • TDD with limited resources

    - by bunglestink
    I work in a large company, but on a just two man team developing desktop LOB applications. I have been researching TDD for quite a while now, and although it is easy to realize its benefits for larger applications, I am having a hard time trying to justify the time to begin using TDD on the scale of our applications. I understand its advantages in automating testing, improving maintainability, etc., but on our scale, writing even basic unit tests for all of our components could easily double development time. Since we are already undermanned with extreme deadlines, I am not sure what direction to take. While other practices such as agile iterative development make perfect since, I am kind of torn over the productivity trade-offs of TDD on a small team. Are the advantages of TDD worth the extra development time on small teams with very tight schedules?

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  • Learning C# quickly

    - by Niklas H
    I just got a position at a big, well-known C#/.NET company. The thing is that I don't know any C# or .NET at all (they know that) and I want to learn as much as I can before I start, to not waste time (and money). How do I learn C#/.NET quickly and efficiently? Resources? Great tutorials? Videos? EDIT: I forgot to mention that I have a couple of years experience with Java. So I am not new to programming - just new to .NET.

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  • On the frontier between work and home

    - by MPelletier
    I think we've all been there: You hear of someone say "hey, wouldn't it be nice if platform X had feature Y?" You look around (on SO!), the feature really doesn't exist, even though it probably would be useful in many contexts. So it's pretty generic. Your mind wanders for a bit. "How tough would it be? Well, it'd probably be just a snippet. And an ad-hoc function. And maybe a wrapper." And boom, before you know it, you've spent a dozen hours of your free time implementing a FooFeature that's really neat and generic. The kind of code you might not even have the time to spit and shine at work, that would be a bit rushed and not so documented. So now you wonder "wouldn't this be useful to others?" And you've got your blog, maybe a CodeProject account, and your colleague who asked if FooFeature exists might, haphazardly, come accross that blog entry, had it existed before they told you. On the otherhand, the NDA agreement. It's sort of vague and general. It doesn't forbid you from coding at home, but it's clear on sharing company code, that's a big NO. But this isn't company code. Or is it? Or will it be? So, what do you do with code (that's more than just a snippet) you wrote in your off time with universality in mind but an idea that came from work, and that will most likely be used at work? Can it be published?

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  • Being prepared for a code review as a developer?

    - by Karthik Sreenivasan
    I am looking for some ideas here. I read the article How should code reviews be Carried Out and Code Reviews, what are the advantages? which were very informative but I still need more clarity on the question below. My Question is, Being the target developer, can you suggest some best practices a developer can incorporate before his code is going get reviewed. Currently I practice the following methods PPT for a logical flow Detailed comments. Issue: Even though I have implemented the above practices, they do not help on the review. The problem I faced is, when certain logic is referred, I keep searching for the implementation and the flow and too much time is wasted in the process and I get on people’s nerve. I think a lot of developers would be going through what I am going through as well.

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  • Rails Book Suggestions [closed]

    - by Solomon081
    Possible Duplicate: Is there a canonical book on Ruby on Rails? I'm looking to learn Ruby on Rails. I already have a small background in Ruby and don't really need a book that covers both, as I ordered the Pickaxe Book a couple days ago. I recently read some of Beginning Ruby on Rails-Steven Holzner, but abandoned that after seeing multiple statements on SO about how terrible the code in it was, and also the fact that it used Rails 1...Just wondering, what is the best book for an ABSOLUTE BEGINNER in Rails?

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  • Choosing the right language for the job

    - by Ampt
    I'm currently working for a company on the engineering team of about 5-6 people and have been given the job of heading up the redesign of an embedded system tester. We've decided the general requirements and attributes that would be desirable in the system, and now I have to decide on a language to use for the system, or at the very least come up with a list of languages with pros and cons to present to the team. The general idea of the project is that we currently have a tester written in c++, which was never designed to be a tester, but instead has evolved to be such over the course of 3-4 years due to need. Writing tests for a new product requires modifying the 'framework' and writing code that is completely non-human readable or intuitive due to the way the system was originally designed. Now, we've decided that the time to modify this tester for each new product that we want to test has become too high and want to partially re-write the system so that we can program the actual tests in a scripting language that would then use the modified c++ framework on the back end to test the actual systems. The c++ framework would be responsible for doing all the actual work and the scripting language would just integrate with that to tell the framework what to do. Never having programmed in a scripting language (we program embedded systems), I've run into a wall where I have no experience with any of the languages that we could possibly use, but must somehow give pros and cons of each language so that we can choose the best one for the job. Currently my short list of possibilities includes: Python TCL Lua Perl My question is this: How can a person evaluate a language that he/she has never used before? What criteria are good indicators for a languages potential usability on a project? While helpful suggestions for my particular case are appreciated, I feel that this is a good skill to possess and would like to be able to apply this to many different projects if at all possible

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  • Implementing MVC pattern in SWT application

    - by Pradeep Simha
    I am developing an SWT application (it's basically an Eclipse plugin, so I need to use SWT). Currently my design is as follows: Model: In model, I have POJOs which represents the actual fields in views. View: It is a dumb layer, it contains just UI and contains no logic (not even event handlers) Controller: It acts as a mediator b/w those two layers. Also it is responsible for creating view layer, handling events etc. Basically I have created all of the controls in view as a static like this public static Button btnLogin and in controller I have a code like this: public void createLoginView(Composite comp) { LoginFormView.createView(comp); //This createView method is in view layer ie LoginFormView LoginFormView.btnLogin.addSelectionListener(new SelectionListener() { //Code goes here }); } Similalrly I have done for other views and controls. So that in main class and other classes I am calling just createLoginView of controller. I am doing similar thing for other views. So my question, is what I am doing is correct? Is this design good? Or I should have followed any other approach. Since I am new to SWT and Eclipse plugin development (basically I am Java EE developer having 4+ years of exp). Any tips/pointers would be appreciated.

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  • Unit testing statically typed functional code

    - by back2dos
    I wanted to ask you people, in which cases it makes sense to unit test statically typed functional code, as written in haskell, scala, ocaml, nemerle, f# or haXe (the last is what I am really interested in, but I wanted to tap into the knowledge of the bigger communities). I ask this because from my understanding: One aspect of unit tests is to have the specs in runnable form. However when employing a declarative style, that directly maps the formalized specs to language semantics, is it even actually possible to express the specs in runnable form in a separate way, that adds value? The more obvious aspect of unit tests is to track down errors that cannot be revealed through static analysis. Given that type safe functional code is a good tool to code extremely close to what your static analyzer understands. However a simple mistake like using x instead of y (both being coordinates) in your code cannot be covered. However such a mistake could also arise while writing the test code, so I am not sure whether its worth the effort. Unit tests do introduce redundancy, which means that when requirements change, the code implementing them and the tests covering this code must both be changed. This overhead of course is about constant, so one could argue, that it doesn't really matter. In fact, in languages like Ruby it really doesn't compared to the benefits, but given how statically typed functional programming covers a lot of the ground unit tests are intended for, it feels like it's a constant overhead one can simply reduce without penalty. From this I'd deduce that unit tests are somewhat obsolete in this programming style. Of course such a claim can only lead to religious wars, so let me boil this down to a simple question: When you use such a programming style, to which extents do you use unit tests and why (what quality is it you hope to gain for your code)? Or the other way round: do you have criteria by which you can qualify a unit of statically typed functional code as covered by the static analyzer and hence needs no unit test coverage?

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  • What to do if I am working on a language that I don't like

    - by Sayem Ahmed
    Hi there, I really don't know if this is the right place to ask this question, but if it isn't, then I guess someone will notify. Anyway, I am working in a software development farm which is currently using PowerBuilder to develop a mid-size ERP solution. The work environment and company management are so great that it may be the best in the whole Bangladesh. Only problem is the technology that are currently being used, which is this PowerBuilder. Now I am a guy who tends to prefer modern development technologies, like DI containers, ORM, TDD, JQuery etc. PowerBuilder is a great tool too, but I couldn' like the application techniques used to build PB applications. These techniques are so inheritance-dependent that many a times these create a great deal of sufferings. I remember two days ago I had to change some processing logic in a core user object and as a result I had to test and re-test all the forms that the application have(apparently, there are almost 20 forms there, each of them with 3-4 kinds of functionalities). Also, learning PB is tough, because online material on this thing is very, very low. I can't afford to read all the documentation that PB provide because I have hard deadlines on the work that I have to do. Another thing with PB is that applications tend to rely on business logic that are implemented on databases which causes debugging to be a nightmare. As a result, I don't feel motivated enough to work in this IDE/System/Framework (or whatever) anymore. My productivity has greatly decreased, and I am not delivering quality code. I think I have the following options available to me - Remain in the current job, keep delivering worse code and let my productivity decrease day by day, taking salaries and bonuses but not delivering quality codes/doing my job the way I should, Search for a new job. At this point number 2 seems a good option, but there are also some issues. As I mentioned before, our management may be the best in the country. Our company owner is himself a software developer with 24 years of experience in software development. He is currently our Team Leader and System Analyst. He is by far the greatest manager and boss I have ever seen. He understands developer's mentality very well(as he IS himself a developer). He is also a great, kind and generous guy. Our company is only a start-up company with 10 developers. Among them, only 3-4 people knows about the business logic behind the ERP, and I am one of them. If I switch my current job, it may hamper the development of this product which I really don't want. I couldn't decide what to do in this situation, so I turned to the community for advice.

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  • Security vulnerability and nda's [closed]

    - by Chris
    I want to propose a situation and gain insight from the communities thoughts. A customer, call them Customer X has a contract with a vendor, Vendor Y to provide an application and services. Customer X discovers a serious authentication vulnerability in Vendor Y's software. Vendor Y and Customer X has a discussion. Vendor Y acknowledges/confirms flaw. Vendor Y confirms they will put effort to fix. Customer X requests Vendor Y to inform all customers impacted by this. Vendor agrees. Fast forward 2 months, and the flaw has not been fixed. Patches were applied to mitigate but the flaw still exists. However, no customers were informed of issue. At this point customer X contacts Vendor Y to determine the status and understand why customer's were not informed. The vendor nicely reminds the customer they are under an NDA and are still working on the issue. A few questions/discussion pieces out of this. By discussing a software flaw with a vendor, does this imply you have agreed to any type of NDA disclosure? Additionally, what rights as does Customer X have to inform other customers of this vulnerability if vendor does not appear willing to comply? I (the op) am under the impression that when this situation occurs, you are supposed to notify vendor of issue, provide them with ample time to respond and if no response you are able to do what you wish with the information. I am thinking back to the MIT/subway incident where they contacted transit authorities, transit authorities didn't respond in a timely fashion so the students disclosed the information publicly on their own. Few things to note about this: I am not the customer in above situation, also lets assume for purposes of keeping discussion inline that customer X has no intentions of disclosing information, they are merely concerned and interested in making sure other customers are aware until it is fixed so they do not expierence a major security breach. (More information can be supplied if needed to add context to question. )

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  • Is it necessary to create a database with as few tables as possible

    - by Shaheer
    Should we create a database structure with a minimum number of tables? Should it be designed in a way that everything stays in one place or is it okay to have more tables? Will it in anyway affect anything? I am asking this question because a friend of mine modified some database structure in mediaWiki. In the end, instead of 20 tables he was using only 8, and it took him 8 months to do that (it was his college assignment). EDIT I am concluding the answer as: size of the tables does NOT matter, until the case is exceptional; in which case the denormalization may help. Thanks to everyone for the answers.

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  • What are requirements for a successful SOA?

    - by Amir Rezaei
    I’m an EA in an organisation with 10000+ employees. Strategically we are heading towards SOA. Currently I’m researching about SOA’s and creating a road map and I have come over many blogs that talk about “SOA is dead”. We can all agree that SOA is not just web-services. The problem is that I have hard to find any information on the reason behind SOA-fail stories in enterprises. What went bad and what went right? My question is: What are common SOA mistakes in enterprises that make SOA fail in long term? Is the any best practice for SOA? What are the most important requirements for a successful SOA in an enterprise? It would be good feedback towards our SOA strategy in this organisation. I have tried to narrow down the question, but it’s hard due to the nature of the question.

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  • How can Swift be so much faster than Objective-C?

    - by Yellow
    Apple launched its new programming language Swift today. In the presentation, they made some performance comparisons between Objective-C and Python. The following is a picture of one of their slides, of a comparison of those three languages performing some complex object sort: There was an even more incredible graph about a performance comparison working on some encryption algorithm. Obviously this is a marketing talk, and they didn't go into detail on how this was implemented in each. I leaves me wondering though: how can a new programming language be so much faster? In this example, surely you just have a bad Objective-C compiler or you're doing something in a less efficient way? How else would you explain a 40% performance increase? I understand that garbage collection/automated reference control might produce some additional overhead, but this much?

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